[[ start of Day 2 ]] [22|08:01] <_sj_> conf transcripts up: [22|08:01] <_sj_> http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/sj/2005/01/22#a744 [22|08:04] * _sj_ is now known as sjout [22|08:18] * Joins: dberlind (~david@h00a0c56b05ab.ne.client2.attbi.com) [22|08:22] * Joins: innocence (~kate@larousse.wikipedia.org) [22|08:26] * Joins: zak (zak@SDF.LONESTAR.ORG) [22|08:28] is the audio stream going to be available at 8.30? [22|08:31] * Joins: jwales (~jwales@66.236.181.99.ptr.us.xo.net) [22|08:31] lo j [22|08:33] * Joins: rubenrp (~rubenrp@24.48.163.177) [22|08:34] * Joins: StaciDKramer (~sdkk@overland10k.mo24.107.12.131.charter-stl.com) [22|08:35] * Parts: rubenrp (~rubenrp@24.48.163.177) [22|08:39] * Quits: zak (zak@SDF.LONESTAR.ORG) ("My damn controlling terminal disappeared!") [22|08:41] * Joins: dsifry_ (~dsifry@ksgc078.harvard.edu) [22|08:49] * Joins: ralph (~chatzilla@c-24-5-22-138.client.comcast.net) [22|08:49] * Joins: _sj_ (~sjhere@ksgc045.harvard.edu) [22|08:49] * Quits: dsifry (~dsifry@66.236.181.99.ptr.us.xo.net) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) [22|08:56] * Joins: Hoder (~chatzilla@CPE0006258dc65e-CM024350003230.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) [22|08:57] Hello [22|08:57] * Joins: Buster (~Buster@pcp04688059pcs.verona01.nj.comcast.net) [22|09:00] hi Hoder. [22|09:00] * Joins: fexx (~F3XX@pD9F91430.dip.t-dialin.net) [22|09:00] * Joins: srhodes (~steve@c-24-23-249-80.client.comcast.net) [22|09:00] * Joins: rubenrp (~rubenrp@24.48.163.177) [22|09:01] Latest New: US bans Internet for Iranians, almost [22|09:01] http://hoder.com/weblog/archives/013290.shtml [22|09:01] Any journalist in this room? [22|09:01] So, is there a presentation as part of the Podcast 'breakfast' or just food? [22|09:02] I'm a journalist. [22|09:02] I was present at the event yesterday. [22|09:03] Hi David [22|09:03] are you at the event? [22|09:03] May I ask where do you work? [22|09:03] ZDNet. [22|09:03] No, I'm in Toronto [22|09:03] Great. [22|09:04] Coupld you please get the word out about this: US bans Internet for Iranians, almost [22|09:04] I'll email you too, if i have it [22|09:04] I'll notify someone in our news organization. [22|09:05] Hoder, this Iranian thing is nonsense. [22|09:05] here's who I am: http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9588_22-5539175.html [22|09:05] * Joins: joho (~dweinberg@ksg-189-204.harvard.edu) [22|09:05] jwales: What do yo mean ? [22|09:06] * Joins: RMacK (~Rebecca_M@ksgb116.harvard.edu) [22|09:06] There is no law in the US which would forbid me from publishing anything that you write. [22|09:07] So you can't blame the US government if ISNA gets kicked off their ISP, not without some direct evidence of government pressure to do this, which is highly unlikely. [22|09:07] That's not to say there aren't inconsistencies in US policy, there are. [22|09:08] How about the GoDaddy policy: http://hoder.com/weblog/archives/013290.shtml [22|09:08] * innocence is now known as zwitter [22|09:09] What US government policy requires them to do that? [22|09:09] <_sj_> we're starting up again. [22|09:09] can you guys hear the webcast? [22|09:09] * Joins: seth (~seth@halogen.note.amherst.edu) [22|09:09] * seth is now known as fesz [22|09:09] Sorry. Correct link: https://www.godaddy.com/gdshop/faq/faq.asp?isc=gppg101204&se=%2B&faq_id=70&topic_id=33&topic=Company%20Information [22|09:09] yes [22|09:09] <_sj_> brendan is talking about prx and podcasting [22|09:09] <_sj_> explaining media enclosure [22|09:09] yes. Brendan Greeley speaking now. [22|09:10] Sam, you are doing a great job [22|09:10] Brendan, I'm here [22|09:10] sam+++ [22|09:10] "The U.S. Department of State has declared the governments of these states to be sponsors of international terrorism. For more information on the activities of these governments please visit the site below:" [22|09:11] <_sj_> nb: when I explained the origins of 'podcasting' yesterday to jwales, I was a bit off; [22|09:11] Does that say that there is a law forbidding them? No, it doesn't. [22|09:11] <_sj_> the 'pod part is more b/c you put it on your ipod and walk way with it than b/c you use the ipod in producing. [22|09:11] GoDaddy has chosen this policy themselves; it is a stupid policy, but it is their right to choose it. [22|09:11] time shifted content consumption. [22|09:11] andy carvin has some podcasts from the conf [22|09:11] http://mobcasting.blogspot.com [22|09:11] and some cameraphone photos [22|09:12] If there's a law which says "US hosting companies must not accept content from Iran" I want to break it in a very public fashion. [22|09:13] some pics from yesterday's gathering: http://www.flickr.com/photos/tags/webcred/ [22|09:14] part of the reason NPR has grown is that what little commercial radio news is left is so bad [22|09:14] * Joins: DaveScripting (~dwiner@ksgb246.harvard.edu) [22|09:14] If your headline read "Some stupid US companies fail to support freedom in Iran, despite the fact that the First Amendment gives them every right to do so" then I'd be with you 100%. [22|09:14] good morning [22|09:14] Youare giht [22|09:14] hi Dave. [22|09:14] You are right. [22|09:14] I exaggerated it a bit. [22|09:15] * Quits: Buster (~Buster@pcp04688059pcs.verona01.nj.comcast.net) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) [22|09:15] and if you do make changes people get angry [22|09:15] Hoder: the mainstream media people told me yesterday that bloggers never post corrections, you're going to ruin the image of blogging if you're reasonable and thoughtful! :-) [22|09:15] However tak a look at this: http://www.state.gov/s/ct/rls/pgtrpt/2000/2441.htm [22|09:15] last paragraph in the box read [22|09:15] Terrorists have seized upon the worldwide practice of using information technology (IT) in daily life. They embrace IT for several reasons: it improves communication and aids organization, allows members to coordinate quickly with large numbers of followers, and provides a platform for propaganda. The Internet also allows terrorists to reach a wide audience of potential donors and recruits... [22|09:15] ...who may be located over a large geographic area. [22|09:16] he's going to play culture vultures [22|09:16] * Joins: blobster (~saco@81-232-173-82-no10.tbcn.telia.com) [22|09:16] *laugh* that's really stupid, isn't it? [22|09:16] It strongly implies that Internet conpmanies should block these countries [22|09:16] * Joins: Buster (~Buster@pcp04688059pcs.verona01.nj.comcast.net) [22|09:16] did anybody just lose the audio? [22|09:16] nope [22|09:16] Hoder: a fun exercise: replace every instance of the word 'Terrorism' in that paragraph with "Democracy activists" [22|09:16] I till have it [22|09:17] Exactly [22|09:17] sorry pop vultures [22|09:17] "Democracy activists have seized upon the worldwide practice of..." [22|09:17] i blogged about when they cancelled it [22|09:17] http://ari.typepad.com/tiger/2004/12/pop_vultures.html [22|09:17] You are right Jimmy [22|09:17] "provides a platform for communication" [22|09:17] that is the voice of jay allison [22|09:18] Is Brendan on IRC too? [22|09:18] http://www.jayallison.com [22|09:18] ok well I better go, I'm not in the conference room yet [22|09:18] bye! [22|09:18] no brendan is presenting so he cant be on irc at the same time. [22|09:18] <^Jaz^> why use a US hosting company, use a European one [22|09:18] he is only human after all. [22|09:18] * fesz is Seth from PRX [22|09:18] I don't mean right now [22|09:18] jay sarted an online pub radio community [22|09:18] http://www.transom.org [22|09:18] which prx grew out of [22|09:19] Seth is from PRX [22|09:19] kate's blog is [22|09:19] http://www.transom.org [22|09:19] hoder, i dont know if he was on yesterday. [22|09:19] http://katesullivan.blogspot.com [22|09:19] RMacK: guessingg no [22|09:19] i like her latest entry: [22|09:20] hey guys: [22|09:20] what with this fucking fat-ass weird surreal coronation bullshit and a "leader" so uncool, so unsexy, so unfunny and so unrock it's hard to believe he's even American; and a world in mourning after recent tragic events; and a Democratic party so fucking sold-out and retarded they're a joke [22|09:20] * Parts: jwales (~jwales@Jimbo-Wales.wikipedia) ("Leaving") [22|09:21] this bio seems ok [22|09:21] http://popvultures.publicradio.org/about/guests/kate.shtml [22|09:21] kate isn't as young as she sounds either [22|09:21] this is a conversation kate did [22|09:21] http://www.transom.org/guests/review/200412.review.sullivan.html [22|09:22] either as html or you can download a pdf to print [22|09:22] Ethan? on IRC? [22|09:22] it also has a photo of kate [22|09:22] can someone tell me the live transcription channel name? [22|09:22] I've lost audio and can't get it back. [22|09:22] webcradtrans [22|09:23] thanks. [22|09:23] * Joins: ethanz (~ethan@ksgb209.harvard.edu) [22|09:23] that is true [22|09:23] have other people lost audio? [22|09:23] nope [22|09:23] great. thanks. [22|09:24] auid is good [22|09:24] * Joins: kgschneid (~kgs@ksge176.harvard.edu) [22|09:24] KQED picked up harry shearer's le show briefly moved it a couple of times and dropped it a couple of weeks ago [22|09:24] when i wrote to complain, this was the reply i got: [22|09:25] * Joins: sannse (~sannse@Sannse.wikipedia) [22|09:25] I might add that we did listen to our listeners. The number of listeners [22|09:25] demanding that the show be removed was well over five times the number [22|09:25] who have responded to the cancellation. Reasons were not the politics, [22|09:25] but the way he pounded music over the air, his lack of production [22|09:25] values, lack of production quality and generally sloppy production. [22|09:25] We listened...... [22|09:25] the point of le show is not the production values (which are still fine) but the content [22|09:27] you can listen sometime and decide foryourselves http://harryshearer.com [22|09:27] http://www.dawnanddrew.com [22|09:27] * Joins: Fons (~fons@218.80.72.138) [22|09:30] don and drew at bloggercon [22|09:30] http://flickr.com/photos/redcarpet/1334091/ [22|09:32] Here is the first podcast in Persian: http://hoder.ws/podcasting/dircaster.php [22|09:32] fwiw, I just blogged the GoAwayDaddy crap, w/link to hoder. Thanks. [22|09:32] http://www.hyperorg.com/blogger/mtarchive/003602.html [22|09:32] Thank you joho [22|09:33] here is the lacivious bidies blog http://www.biddyblog.com [22|09:33] i hadn't seen their blog before and they use a photo i took of adam curry at bloggercon [22|09:34] thank YOU hoder. jeez, what an outrageous story. thanks for unearthing it. [22|09:35] for podcasting -- you don't have to use a mac [22|09:35] but many people would find it easier to use their mac or get a mac mini [22|09:36] http://ipodder.org [22|09:37] and on the media is podcasting http://www.onthemedia.org/podhelp.html [22|09:39] * Quits: fexx (~F3XX@pD9F91430.dip.t-dialin.net) ("( www.nnscript.de :: NoNameScript 3.81 :: www.XLhost.de )") [22|09:41] ed's postcast http://radio.weblogs.com/0107946/2005/01/19.html#a3185 [22|09:41] who was that spaking? [22|09:41] speaking [22|09:41] ed cone [22|09:42] sorry you mean after him [22|09:42] after ed...the guy with a radio show [22|09:43] >but many people would find it easier to use their mac or get a mac mini [22|09:44] how so? [22|09:44] I've found neither is easier than the other. [22|09:44] andy's site [22|09:44] http://andycarvin.com [22|09:44] production or consumption. [22|09:44] there just are easier audio tools for the mac [22|09:45] http://audlink.com ? [22|09:45] Audacity is at the core of most podcasting recipes and is available for both. [22|09:45] http://audioblogger.com [22|09:45] which is free to use with blogger [22|09:45] people use Soundflower on the Mac, VAC (Virtual Audio Cables) on Windows. [22|09:46] 6 of one, half dozen of the other. [22|09:46] From talking with our users, podcasting needs several tutorials for novice end-users: how to podcast on win OR mac; what you get from podcasts; how to subscribe to podcasts [22|09:46] i still think it would be easier for a novice to get started podcasting on a mac [22|09:46] Whwre is VAC? [22|09:47] http://smartmobs.com [22|09:47] http://spider.nrcde.ru/music/software/eng/vac.html [22|09:47] one location. [22|09:47] tnx david [22|09:47] i can post via cell phone [22|09:47] it was a rush at first [22|09:47] when end-users don't have macs you can't say "go out and get a mac" [22|09:48] but I don't use it anymore [22|09:48] you can leave a voicemail for me in an MP3 [22|09:48] no one ever does [22|09:48] my library wants to podcast [22|09:48] there are accessibility components here as well--providing audio introductions to services for visually-challenged readers [22|09:49] obviously if they already have a pc, they should use a pc [22|09:49] mobcasting.blogspot.com [22|09:49] Is there any Radio-to-Phone service around? [22|09:49] is podcasting CB radio... Orkut... or the next new new thing? [22|09:50] I mean somewhere i call and listen to radio, either internet-based or broadcast? [22|09:51] hossein - ory okolloh says that you can listen to radio in kenya over the phone - you might want to ask her about that... [22|09:51] indymedia has a setup so they can send updates to their site using sms [22|09:51] * Joins: guest914 (~54700747@67.19.41.132) [22|09:51] http://www.indybay.org/news/2005/01/1715947.php [22|09:51] srhodes: isn't that text? [22|09:51] unless it goes text to sound which is a thought [22|09:52] what would a poddcasting-ready cellphone look like? [22|09:52] yep [22|09:52] though indymedia uses a lot of audio [22|09:52] by the way,... something like Podcasting for *any* Radio show: www.radiotime.com [22|09:52] the CEO calls this TiVo for Radio. [22|09:52] * Joins: guest751 (~54700747@67.19.41.132) [22|09:53] it is possible to use a treo to listen to a shoutcast stream [22|09:53] it has to be a pretty low bitrate stream [22|09:53] srhodes: I was wondering exactly that [22|09:53] but it will get better [22|09:53] yes [22|09:54] * Joins: guest115 (~54700747@67.19.41.132) [22|09:54] Is there any free hosting service for podcasting around? with limited bandwith [22|09:54] hoder - audioblogger is free, I think - part of the blogger service [22|09:54] I know about audioblogger [22|09:55] joho - not convinced you need anything special on a cellphone. Phones like mine - with full keyboards - make it easier to tag posts, but there's no reason you can't do it from the keypad [22|09:55] it conversations is at http://www.itconversations.com [22|09:55] a free audiohosting service for liberty-challenged parts of the world would be very cool [22|09:55] exactly [22|09:55] yes http://www.blogger.com/tour_pst.g "it's fun at parties" ;) [22|09:55] any creative commons content can be stored at archive.org [22|09:55] hoho: can you suggest that there? [22|09:56] i'll try hoder, but the session is coming to a close [22|09:56] but rmack is on the irc. better than raising my hand :) [22|09:57] what's that? not been looking.. [22|09:58] joho, rmack - audioblogging in freedom-challenged countries is one of the projects we're considering taking on in a big way at Berkman [22|09:58] rmack, hoder has a point he'd like raised. [22|09:58] sorry, that was joho, hoder... [22|09:58] * jonl_away is now known as jonl [22|09:58] it's just to point out that it'd be great if there were a free audioblog host for areas of the world that need it [22|09:58] there is a tutorial for the creative commons publisher to upload stuff to archive.org [22|09:58] http://creativecommons.org/weblog/entry/5214 [22|09:58] * dsifry_ is now known as dsifry [22|09:58] Rmack - Podcasting needs hosting. and it's not available in developing countries like iran [22|09:59] free, but limited space for podcasting [22|09:59] rmack is making your point... [22|09:59] A question relevant to Blogger Corps. [22|09:59] And DDN. [22|09:59] she says "The digitial divide network and the berkman are looking at this" [22|10:00] Right. [22|10:00] If hosting thing is solved, podcasting would be huge in Iran too [22|10:00] hoder berkman is hoping to work on that very issue. [22|10:00] berkman++ [22|10:00] Hoder, are there no hosting companies in Iran? [22|10:00] hossein - would love to talk about how Berkman could work on this in Iran. Is that a possibility? Who would we partner with? [22|10:00] And how about access to hosts outside Iran? [22|10:01] Ethan, how does Berkman address it: by cultivating ISP arrangements? [22|10:01] there is a conf on the net and public radio and tv in san fran jan 26-28 [22|10:02] http://www.integratedmedia.org/nav.cfm?cat=15&subcat=74&subsub=14 [22|10:02] jonl - I don't know. I've thought this trhough in Ghana, where I would put a server at the cellphone company [22|10:02] jonl, what's your involvement in COIR? was meaning to ask you yesterday. [22|10:02] in Iran, I don't know what the best way to go about it would be [22|10:02] they have an archive of their previous conf in san diego last year [22|10:02] http://www.integratedmedia.org/nav.cfm?cat=15&subcat=74&subsub=14 [22|10:02] Berkamn with Omidyar? [22|10:02] RMacK: I helped put it together with Krista Bradford and Aldon Hynes. [22|10:03] is there a URL I can point people to? [22|10:03] Yes, let me find it, just a sec. [22|10:03] something with a blurb that explains it if people are interested? [22|10:03] * Quits: dyer (ethan@dyer.user) (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)) [22|10:03] is it possible Google would give audio hosting soon? [22|10:04] http://coir.smartcampaigns.com/ [22|10:04] it's like Hello, but for audio, instead of photos [22|10:04] It's a civicspace site. [22|10:04] hoder, if you can make podcdasts searchable, maybe :) [22|10:04] by stock in storage technology companies [22|10:04] Audio hosting is a much bigger deal than mere hosting. [22|10:04] video is right behind Audio. [22|10:04] * Quits: fesz (~seth@halogen.note.amherst.edu) ("My damn controlling terminal disappeared!") [22|10:04] jonl: not in the podcasting world. [22|10:04] (dberlind, I'm whispering to you. Check the window behind this one :) [22|10:04] dberlind: explain? [22|10:05] The files are significantly smaller? [22|10:05] Or just more efficient use of bandwidth? [22|10:05] I mean, if you have files that are large, and you're moving them over the network, that uses X bandwidth, and bandwidth is costly. [22|10:06] * Quits: kgschneid (~kgs@ksge176.harvard.edu) [22|10:06] As my network guy keeps telling me when I offer to do pro bono hosting for people. *8^) [22|10:06] doesn anyone have acontact in NYTimes tech section? [22|10:06] Hoder: I know a couple of NYTimes tech people. [22|10:07] John Schwartz and Katie Hafner. [22|10:07] * Joins: Submarine (~myself@David.Monniaux.wikipedia) [22|10:07] thanks for the url, jonl [22|10:08] Anyway the thing about getting hosting in Iran might be to figure out how to cultivate ISPs there. There's a question of available backhaul etc. [22|10:08] * Joins: cbracy (~cbracy@ksgc057.harvard.edu) [22|10:09] jonl: you can't count on Iranian ISPs [22|10:09] However another question is whether the hosts could be outside Iran, and still be an effective resource for Iranians. [22|10:09] http://en.wikinews.org [22|10:09] who is talking now? [22|10:09] Jim Wales. [22|10:09] Hoder: I was afraid you would say that. [22|10:10] All ISPs should obey the government [22|10:11] for countries w/ no freedom of speech we need to help people get hosted on secure ISP's in countries with strong freespeech protection, and also help them with getting around filtering/blocking, etc. And also ensure anonymity so people won't get tracked down and arrested. [22|10:13] Reb - exactly [22|10:14] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unrest_in_Belize_in_2005 [22|10:15] Reb - Berkman can work with BBG too on thath [22|10:16] * Joins: kinch (abc@Toronto-HSE-ppp3681203.sympatico.ca) [22|10:16] <^Jaz^> how does one exactly do that RMacK [22|10:16] hoder, ethan and i are talking to the berkman leadership about a lot of things we may possibly do, how, etc. [22|10:17] * Joins: cameronfactor (~cameron@ksgb253.harvard.edu) [22|10:17] * Joins: Project2501a (user@193.92.40.238) [22|10:17] Sounds like it would be worthwhile to talk to some of the state ISP associations. [22|10:17] * Parts: Project2501a (user@193.92.40.238) [22|10:17] we dont have a plan yet that we can put concretely at this point. [22|10:17] * Joins: jwales (~jwales@ksgb237.harvard.edu) [22|10:17] This might also be a subject for the Wireless Summit that the Association for Community Networking is doing in April. [22|10:18] <^Jaz^> the only way to do it would be via satelite ISP's [22|10:18] BBG: http://www.bbg.gov/bbg_aboutus.cfm [22|10:18] jonl, yup. [22|10:19] Sorry, not wireless summit: Community Networking Summit. :) [22|10:19] http://www.afcn.org/node/178 [22|10:20] <^Jaz^> so you have to be proposing setting up satelite ISP's in these countries [22|10:20] maybe we should use the global voices wiki to consolidate info on all these various summits, conferences, groups, orgs, etc. and discuss how we can all work together on stuff like this. [22|10:21] maybe hoder might want to spearhead this? [22|10:21] <^Jaz^> and if this country goes against freedom of speech, and the dictator of said country starts to kill people, wouldn't it be better to do nothing at all in the first place [22|10:22] * Quits: kinch (abc@Toronto-HSE-ppp3681203.sympatico.ca) [22|10:22] Reb - good idea [22|10:23] I'll start a project like "project audio hosting" [22|10:23] sounds good, hoder! [22|10:23] * Parts: Buster (~Buster@pcp04688059pcs.verona01.nj.comcast.net) [22|10:24] re: audiohosting .. why not bittorrent. [22|10:24] ? [22|10:26] fyi... everybody... the global voices wiki is at http://cyber.law.harvard.edu:8080/globalvoices/wiki/index.php/Main_Page [22|10:26] the blog is at http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/globalvoices [22|10:26] * Joins: JRM (~JRM@a82-92-119-11.adsl.xs4all.nl) [22|10:26] * Quits: ralph (~chatzilla@c-24-5-22-138.client.comcast.net) ("Chatzilla 0.9.66 [Mozilla rv:1.7.5/20041107]") [22|10:27] The 40 servers actually started bogging down post-tsunami. [22|10:27] Has bittorrent and podcasts merged yet? [22|10:28] why did he start wikipedia? [22|10:28] * Joins: mindspillage (~mindspill@42.234.165.24.cfl.rr.com) [22|10:28] on a whim while working on nupedia, iirc.. [22|10:28] * Joins: Project2501a (user@193.92.40.238) [22|10:28] hi hi [22|10:29] i am reading #webcredtrans and i got a question for Jimbo [22|10:29] Who defines what's neutral, though? aint "neutral" subjective? [22|10:29] * Joins: jpalfrey (~chatzilla@ksgb152.harvard.edu) [22|10:29] yes, bittorrent and podcasts have merged. [22|10:29] maybe we should try running this session wiki-like [22|10:29] project, the brilliant thing about wikipedia, imo, is that they define neutrality operationally: neutral = we've stopped arguing about it. neutral=no more substantial edits. [22|10:29] no moderator? [22|10:30] yeah but... [22|10:30] the podcasting page keeps rocking and rolling [22|10:30] not exactly neutral [22|10:30] Dave Slusher's podcasts (Evil Genius Chronicles) for example, are generally available as direct MP3 downloads and Bittorent downloads [22|10:30] dave, i interviewed jimmy last week and asked him why he started it. [22|10:30] he said it was because he saw the success of the open source movement and wondered where else it would work. [22|10:31] also, I'm a lunatic, joho, don't forget that part :-) [22|10:31] For Slusher's stuff: see http://www.evilgeniuschronicles.org/ [22|10:31] <_sj_> please announce who you are! [22|10:31] <_sj_> and, jimbo, slow down :) [22|10:31] <_sj_> just a tiny tad... [22|10:31] sj, that's jim kennedy from ap [22|10:31] (jwales, i thought i was talking behind your back! How embarrassing!) [22|10:31] http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/History_of_Wikipedia [22|10:31] History of Wikipedia. [22|10:32] (JUst ran across that) [22|10:32] * Joins: dyer (ethan@dyer.user) [22|10:33] I'm ubiquitous [22|10:33] :-) [22|10:33] i love the idea that wikinews is starting up with no "a priori" idea of what it'll be. [22|10:33] the net in a nutshell [22|10:33] Ceterum censeo that ITN should move to Wikinews. [22|10:33] * Joins: guest447 (~42bc4663@67.19.41.132) [22|10:33] yes i think this is the best way to grow a new online media org. you let the community shape it organically. you dont create some kind of top-down plan. [22|10:33] * Joins: GerardM (~chatzilla@h141112.upc-h.chello.nl) [22|10:34] Ceterum censeo? [22|10:34] * Joins: FutureCrash (julius@83.243.42.10) [22|10:34] RMacK: organic++ [22|10:34] Project2501a> "Furthermore, I am of the opinion..." [[Cato the Elder]] [22|10:35] ah, thanks. [22|10:35] In Soviet Russia, Microsoft is send to the Gullag. [22|10:35] there are wikipedias with a pov such as disinfopedia which is now called sourcewatch [22|10:35] http://www.sourcewatch.org [22|10:35] (wikimedia is good software for that sorta thing) [22|10:36] great, even. [22|10:36] Instead of MS, try Scientology. Stronger argument, I think. [22|10:36] same idea [22|10:36] (technically, disinfopedia isn't a 'wikipedia', as its a trademark) [22|10:36] * Joins: ungaro (~ungaro@dsl81-214-12195.adsl.ttnet.net.tr) [22|10:36] famous version wars: anti-semitism, George W. Bush [22|10:37] I think they locked the articles for both at some point - correct, Jim? [22|10:37] * Parts: FutureCrash (julius@83.243.42.10) ("Verlassend") [22|10:37] GWB has been locked for extensive periods, multiple times. [22|10:38] jonl: temporarily [22|10:38] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_w_bush [22|10:39] "No original research!" "But I my perpetual motion machine *really works*!" [22|10:39] it's great idea [22|10:40] no original research [22|10:40] Hi, I'm George. I wanna ask Jimbo a question: Slashdot claimed to be a free news site, till some company (don't remember which), used the DMCA to twist their arm and made them pull their story. what happens if EvilCorp does the same thing to sush a legitimate story or article on wikipedia? [22|10:40] * Joins: Rdsmith4 (Rdsmith4@ip24-252-34-205.om.om.cox.net) [22|10:40] will you fight it? will you just remove the article? [22|10:40] * Joins: guest826 (~ce0f8ab8@67.19.41.132) [22|10:41] hadn't realized the prohibition against unpub research on Wikipedia. Very interesting. seems to make Wikinews very different from the dream of a "bloggers news network" some of us have been talking about [22|10:42] * Joins: waerth (waerth@ppp-61.91.94.4.revip.asianet.co.th) [22|10:42] I would be most disappointed if it became that. Even if OR were allowed somewhat, there's still always NPOV. [22|10:42] but what's interesting is that those aren't controversial within the community (bush and anti-semitism) [22|10:42] ethanz> well, wikipedia policies don't necessarily apply to wikinews. [22|10:42] ethanz, yeah, that means it will perpetuate the biases and flaws of MSM [22|10:42] It's just trolls who caused us to have to lock it. [22|10:43] JRM - agreed - think its a good thingf that wikinews has NPOV. just means it's going to be very different from a blogger news network [22|10:43] did it start already? [22|10:43] RMack: but we can draw from many different "MSM" views (Al Jazeera, Wall Street Journal) as well as report (neutrally) on that the blogs are saying. [22|10:44] * zwitter is led to understand that NPOV is a very flexible concept on wikibooks [22|10:44] waerth> Yes, you're way late. They already discussed the Belize scoop, for example. :-) [22|10:44] nooooooo [22|10:44] webcredtrans [22|10:44] * Joins: ayashii (~chatzilla@218-42-227-41.eonet.ne.jp) [22|10:45] * Parts: ayashii (~chatzilla@218-42-227-41.eonet.ne.jp) [22|10:45] am starting up the webcast now [22|10:45] He keeps ribbing on our Dickinson article. Is he trying to troll us into working? :-) [22|10:45] there's also already a podcast of his opening remarks at [22|10:45] http://mobcasting.blogspot.com [22|10:45] JRM> i said this in #wikimedia, but to repeat: i think he's missing the point with that comparison [22|10:46] the way a wiki works is that things are built over time. it's not a problem that we don't have every topic covered in 100% detail yet. it'll happen over time [22|10:46] * Parts: dyer (ethan@dyer.user) ("Leaving") [22|10:47] * Joins: dyer (ethan@dyer.user) [22|10:47] um, coprorations are not people [22|10:47] they are entities [22|10:47] but not people [22|10:47] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wal-mart [22|10:48] Wikipedia is never for "now" [22|10:48] It's always better "later" [22|10:48] * Joins: AndreasHaugstrup (usenet@D40A93CB.rev.stofanet.dk) [22|10:49] Yes, but to some extent it is. But this is the issue of [[m:eventualism]]. [22|10:49] on wards 'wiki they have the concept of 'wikinow' [22|10:49] Every page on Wikipedia has a shadowy admin [22|10:49] wikipedia has largely forgotten about this [22|10:49] seiu is planning on creating a wikipedia like site on wal-mart [22|10:49] which is a shame, because it leads to these kind of comparisons [22|10:49] JRM: what they are talking about happened in the [[Greek Civil War]] article [22|10:49] the admin is someone who cares most about that topic [22|10:50] JRM> if a wiki doesn't have eventualism, it isn't a wiki [22|10:50] zwitter> It's not a question of yes or no, it's a question of how much. [22|10:50] heehee [22|10:51] http://www.purpleocean.org/laborday [22|10:51] we'll bring out the Wal-Mart Wiki. I don't know how many of you are familiar with a concept of a wiki. Basically, it's a collaborative encyclopedia. Everyone will have a chance to put their knowledge in a central database, about what Wal-Mart has done right, but also about how people have fought against them. Information is power. [22|10:52] talk about Belize! [22|10:52] oh he did [22|10:52] Rdsmith4> you're too late [22|10:52] I'm listening to the webcast, and it's about fifteen seconds behind [22|10:52] * Project2501a wonders about the diff between wikinews and indynews... [22|10:53] We have NPOV. [22|10:53] Rdsmith4: he talked about it a lot early on [22|10:53] JRM: indynews has a NPOV [22|10:53] also anyone can post almost anything to an imc [22|10:53] Project2501a> "A" NPOV? :-) [22|10:53] s/a// [22|10:54] Project2501a> OK, then it's just because we are cooler. I don't know Indynews. :-) [22|10:54] why is Armenian Genocide first Miscellaneous topics [22|10:54] heh [22|10:54] oh okay [22|10:54] Hey joho, please don't forget to tag your posts with "webcred" [22|10:54] :-) [22|10:55] Project: indynews has a LPOV, perhaps. [22|10:55] (left-wing point of view :-) [22|10:55] Rdsmith4: when the revolution comes... ;) [22|10:56] oy, I've been remembering to tag about 10% of m posts. [22|10:56] Dave, I assume that tags with no anchor text still get picked up. No? [22|10:56] Heh, the whole thing is turning into a big Wiki show. I love it. :-) [22|10:57] NPOV=neutral point of view, in case someone was asking [22|10:57] joho, yes I believe so [22|10:57] joho but you're doing your readers a disservice, imho [22|10:58] joho: with anchor text your readers get to pivot for themselves [22|10:58] joho: e.g. they get to see all the posts [22|10:58] joho: and photos and bookmarks [22|10:58] * Joins: bitsko (~ken@dsl.76.41.networkiowa.com) [22|10:58] joho: but you don't need anchor text IIRC [22|10:59] I haven't been remembering at all... [22|10:59] Dave, does the link appear immediately when we ping technorati? [22|11:00] tags are very Wikish [22|11:00] jonl: Assuming our spiders are working correctly [22|11:01] jonl: and we do still have some bugs in the system [22|11:01] * Joins: advance (~chatzilla@g112042.upc-g.chello.nl) [22|11:01] jonl: Then the tag will appear shortly after pinging [22|11:01] jonl: we cache the page for about 10 minutes [22|11:01] jonl: so if you check the tag right before posting, then you post [22|11:01] cool, thanks... I'll make a note to make sure I remember. [22|11:01] jonl: it'll take about 10 minutes to show up vbecause of our caching [22|11:02] ok, good. [22|11:02] the one I tried wasn't there immediately so I assumed a little lag. [22|11:02] here is a story on the lawsuit over the navy seal photos [22|11:02] http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000742675 [22|11:02] jonl: Flickr and delicious have 30 minute caches [22|11:02] so we don't mash them with calls [22|11:03] Ah, cool, that makes sense. [22|11:03] * Joins: danbri (~danbri@82-32-5-17.cable.ubr01.azte.blueyonder.co.uk) [22|11:03] and a story on the photos http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2004/12/04/state1648EST0088.DTL [22|11:03] Hi danbri [22|11:03] * jonl has to figure out what to do with taxonomy.com. [22|11:03] hi dsifry, Hoder, everyone... [22|11:03] er, tagsonomy.com, that is. [22|11:03] Hi, danbri [22|11:03] jonl: I may be able to hmake some suggestions :-) [22|11:04] * Joins: mahu (~mahu@h-67-101-220-9.snfccasy.dynamic.covad.net) [22|11:04] Drop me a note, David. [22|11:04] I'd love to hear. [22|11:04] :) [22|11:05] * Joins: guest243 (~54700747@67.19.41.132) [22|11:06] yo danbri [22|11:06] this discussion is irking me. it's saying that blogging is continuous with journalism [22|11:07] Or is that blogging may be perceived as continuous with? [22|11:07] this is the chris pirillo post that was mentione [22|11:07] http://chris.pirillo.com/blog/_archives/2005/1/16/250783.html [22|11:07] ew. blogging sucks ass. [22|11:07] * Joins: SethF (~sethf@HOME-ON-THE-DOME.MIT.EDU) [22|11:07] most blogging is goship. [22|11:08] A blog is a one-person wiki with a comment dump. [22|11:08] * Joins: cadence90 (~lisa@ksgb092.harvard.edu) [22|11:08] s/comment// [22|11:08] s/one-person wiki with a comment// [22|11:08] Sigh ... diary vs punditry again [22|11:08] Hi SethF [22|11:09] They should distinguish form from content, eh, Seth? [22|11:09] Are you here? [22|11:09] m y blog is me talking to a bunch of friends about what we're interested in. [22|11:09] i happen to find mexican ufo sightings to be interesting, although not believable. [22|11:09] Same here. [22|11:09] that's why they're interesting. [22|11:09] I AM NOT A JOURNALIST. at last not on myblog [22|11:09] My blog is what I used to do with email lists. [22|11:09] at last=at least [22|11:09] [HI Lisa ... yes, this is Seth Finkelstein] [22|11:09] Are you here in the room? [22|11:09] joho - right, you are a columnist [22|11:09] But I'm not sure I'm never a journalist on my blog. [22|11:10] Sometimes I'm thinking like one when I blog... but not that often. [22|11:10] * danbri remembers meeting joho assuming 'not a journalist' as was a blogger; but we had a fairly journalistic interaction... [22|11:10] people have multiple hats... [22|11:10] jonl - "blog" is like "writing". A letter isn't like an AP article. [22|11:10] One thing I like the idea of is blogs as a vehicle for not wasting anything as a journalist. [22|11:10] Right. [22|11:10] So bloggers are like writers. [22|11:10] How about this? A blog is a blog. [22|11:11] Drop the "like". [22|11:11] I keep thinking about Rebecca's story of doing all this work to get an interview with the Prime Minister of Japan [22|11:11] and then it never saw airtime. [22|11:11] except when they are photographers [22|11:11] or videomakers [22|11:11] But, at the risk of being tedious, my pint is that the confusion of terms does cause a lot of confused discussion [22|11:11] Jim: but we've seen in our conversations here where that's not quite enough. [22|11:11] Seth, I agree with you. [22|11:11] Err, point [22|11:11] My point is just the analogies only get us so far. It's a unique medium. [22|11:11] I'm saying we fix it by stressing that a blog is not a type of content. [22|11:11] It's a type of container. [22|11:11] Or form. [22|11:12] It's like when radio fist appeared, people probably said "it's like a newspaper, but they read it to you" [22|11:12] <_sj_> re: tools... I'd like to know what people think about tools for letting multiple people contribute to a single sound recording at the same time, from different places [22|11:12] Or television: "it's radio, but with pictures" [22|11:12] No doubt. [22|11:12] jonl> Heh, then it's hard to say what wiki is. Arguably both. [22|11:12] jonl interesting point. container vs. form [22|11:12] Hi Dan [22|11:12] Hmm .. the problem is "form" tends to be misunderstood as "type" [22|11:12] Or content vs form. [22|11:12] sj, yikes -- what about just recording a conference call? [22|11:12] Skype is almost there. [22|11:12] right content vs. form [22|11:12] re sound recording... I'd love more tools that allow people to annotate CNN/Fox/etc with their own parallel audio stream critique... [22|11:12] why do i feel like i'm in philosophy 101 again? [22|11:12] OK, let's say structure, not form. [22|11:12] I can podcast from my cell phone (not in realtime) [22|11:13] another example of a fairly anonymous, oft-quoted source: Groklaw. [22|11:13] and if I were calling in to a conference call... [22|11:13] Or medium. [22|11:13] That might be best. [22|11:13] like a dvd commentary track [22|11:13] caoimhin> Because you are. Before long, someone is going to say "the territory is no the map". [22|11:13] ooh, commentaries. [22|11:13] I love that idea. [22|11:13] Television is a medium that can include many types of content. [22|11:13] * Quits: mahu (~mahu@h-67-101-220-9.snfccasy.dynamic.covad.net) ("Quitting") [22|11:13] I'd love to have independently produced commentaries for movies, tv, or be able to [22|11:13] So is a blog. [22|11:13] wow David is shouting. [22|11:14] I just think it's simpler to stress "it's like writing" [22|11:14] that has already happened [22|11:14] watch Jay Rosen watch Meet the Press. [22|11:14] weinberger +++ [22|11:14] Give David a xanax, somebody. [22|11:14] Heh. [22|11:14] he rocks [22|11:14] hey, tell that guy not to shout :P [22|11:14] joho, YOU'RE A COLUMNIST! A FEATURES COLUMNIST [22|11:14] i'd say "a blog" is a bit vague actually. it's like equating the new york times and the east weeble-wobble gardening quarterly newsletter put out by agnes marple. [22|11:14] Sort of MST3K for news nerds [22|11:14] But he isn't. [22|11:14] there was no commentary track for mullholland drive so someone created one [22|11:14] http://flakmag.com/film/commentary/mulholland.html [22|11:14] Cool. [22|11:14] there have been others [22|11:14] they're both "news papers" in that they have news printed on paper, but they're not the same. [22|11:15] lest anyone say there's unanimity in the blogosphere... [22|11:15] You know, when we refer to content management systems, we don't worry about what content is managed. [22|11:15] It would be great to have an easy tool to create them and sync them to media. [22|11:15] * JRM shoots DaveScripting for using the word "blogosphere". [22|11:15] "Blog" is a content mgt system. [22|11:15] i'll say again... weinberger++++++++ [22|11:15] jonl: Yes! [22|11:15] ouch [22|11:15] I'd love to be able to pop a DVD into my computer and launch a program that let me select a commentary track. [22|11:15] Seth: *8^) [22|11:15] jonl: first, cms is bordering on meaningless buzzword. [22|11:15] * Parts: AndreasHaugstrup (usenet@D40A93CB.rev.stofanet.dk) [22|11:16] caoimhin: surely you jest? [22|11:16] The problem is that so many people want to make journalism out of diary and chat. Over and over and over ... [22|11:16] CMS is a technology. [22|11:16] SethF: We call those people stupid^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hspecial. [22|11:16] What's a technology? [22|11:16] You know what would be useful? [22|11:16] A tool. [22|11:16] [22|11:16] a del.icio.us feed of all the sites that people have mentioned. [22|11:16] I know. [22|11:16] heh [22|11:16] Maybe I should do that. [22|11:16] jonl: but it's a vague term. vi + ~/public_html + apache is a cms. [22|11:17] Not vague at all. [22|11:17] Apache is a web server, not a cms. [22|11:17] vi is an editor, not a cms. [22|11:17] * Quits: advance (~chatzilla@g112042.upc-g.chello.nl) ("Chatzilla 0.9.66 [Mozilla rv:1.7.5/20041107]") [22|11:17] cadence90 - cool idea! [22|11:17] I bet srhodes would do the del.icio.us feed, if we asked him. [22|11:17] :) [22|11:18] i was just thinking that [22|11:18] jonl: but look at wordpress compared to scoop. they lead to different communities. [22|11:18] wish i had thought of it before [22|11:18] You're the master, Steve. [22|11:18] SethF: I would expect thought, that if the chair of the journalism school of Columbia run a blog, s/he would post news according to his/hers blog according to the same principles they teach their classes with. [22|11:18] I just started webcred_links on del.icio.us. [22|11:18] play along and add links [22|11:18] caoimhin: doesn't matter: the technology is one thing, the community is another. [22|11:18] Don't conflate 'em. [22|11:19] That's close to the point Seth and I have been discussing. [22|11:19] Project2501a: Why would you think that? WMaybe he writes a dairy, or does professional chat. Or maybe he's not a good working journalist. [22|11:19] hey, where's my xanax! you guys promised! [22|11:19] jonl: from the practical sesne of what happens - particularly in terms of comparing mainstream news to "blogs", i think cms is just too vague. [22|11:19] one thing interesting about del.icio.us is it is pretty new [22|11:20] Ugh. I hate how my delicious plugin works in firefox [22|11:20] so my link to the mulholland drive commentary seems to be the first one [22|11:20] it treats it as a popup and puts it underneath all the browser windows. [22|11:20] if it had been around in 2002 there would have been lots of links [22|11:20] * cadence90 passes joho a little pill [22|11:20] comparing the new york times to marshell's talking points memo leads to a very different discussion then comparing the nyt to kuro5hin.org. [22|11:20] SethF: Hm. I would expect such a person to be a good journalist... but yeah, you got a point. [22|11:21] ethan: amen [22|11:21] This all puts me in mind of CCD (sunday school for Catholics) [22|11:21] there was this concept of the "mystical body of the church" [22|11:21] which was all the people whoever and wherever they were [22|11:21] now there's the "mystical body of the newsroom" [22|11:21] where the newsroom happens wherever and whenever somebody is doing journalism. [22|11:22] ethanz+++ [22|11:22] It's not a "water coller". It's a bully pulpit (pun intended) [22|11:22] "I'm not a journalist, I'm a preacher. I'm just telling my flock something they might like to hear ..." [22|11:22] are the journalists now using anecdotes to discuss blogs? i thought only bloggers did anecdotes? [22|11:24] i thought these were called editors? re: "that's what journalists were for. now, we need a new kind of person, maybe we need a new name for it, who says "there is uncertainty out there that needs to be reduced!"" [22|11:24] preachers now have blogs [22|11:24] * Joins: jeroenvrp (~jeroenvrp@uptown.xs4all.nl) [22|11:24] http://www.faithforward.blogspot.com/ [22|11:24] someone PLEASE, tune down the high pitch nob... [22|11:24] free licensing ++++ [22|11:24] Nobody's sitting at the console. [22|11:24] * caoimhin awaits the "blogs, homilies and credibility" conference [22|11:24] GPL > * [22|11:25] The audio console. [22|11:25] cadence90: ugh. [22|11:25] Hugh Hewiit talked about "faith-based blogging" :-) [22|11:25] hey, this conf is on a shoestring, man. [22|11:25] ^Hewiit^Hewitt^ [22|11:25] "Jesus is my Blog peer reviewer?" [22|11:25] Project - I'll try to find the audio tech... [22|11:25] You should see the console, though, it's amazing. [22|11:26] I took a picture. I bet this console costs more than my car. [22|11:26] "jesus is the blogger who influenced me the most" [22|11:26] caoimhin++ [22|11:26] (george w blog) [22|11:26] haha [22|11:26] cadence90: i'll get my LPs and my decks and i'll DJ for the conf if you want me to :) [22|11:26] caoimhin: LOl :) [22|11:26] I think he didn't blog himself. He had apostles for that. [22|11:26] woot! [22|11:26] I'd love to have read Judas' blog, though. "From the treasury..." [22|11:26] it's like all that talk about candidates blogging..."Well, they're much too busy to blog themselves..." [22|11:27] JRM: supposdely there's a script written from jesus himself. but it's considered apocrypha [22|11:27] * Joins: mahu (~mahu@h-67-101-220-9.snfccasy.dynamic.covad.net) [22|11:27] Ghost-blogging (ghostwriting) is inevitable. [22|11:27] ok, i'm a grumpy atheist, but isn't the bible full of blogs? aren't there all these "letters to foo" scattered around the bible? [22|11:27] BY THE POWER OF WIKIPEDIA! I HAVE THE GOOGLE-POWER! [22|11:27] Jimbo as He-Man? :) [22|11:28] * zwitter waves [22|11:28] * Parts: zwitter (~kate@larousse.wikipedia.org) [22|11:28] "The Blog of Moses" [22|11:28] * Parts: Submarine (~myself@David.Monniaux.wikipedia) ("Leaving") [22|11:28] With some suggesting Bush might nominate Clarence Thomas as Chief Justice, it would be interesting if Plume put out a ebook of Strange Justice with a new intro under creative commons [22|11:28] Comment from: Jeremiah "STFU noob." [22|11:28] Now now, You Can't Say You Can't Play. [22|11:28] the members might get upset [22|11:29] (That's the rule at my son's preschool) [22|11:29] that they are paying for an ap feed [22|11:29] though ofcourse now anyone can link to an AP story [22|11:29] i still stand by the idea that GLP rocks all other licences. [22|11:29] and as for what blogs really are similar to, i really think they're closer to community newsletters. not the media. my only real worry about blogs is that people can limit their news sources to ONLY their view of the world. [22|11:30] caoimhin: don't they already do that? [22|11:30] Project2501a: ok, more so. :) [22|11:30] god damn it, i was born in alabama, i lived in alabama and i'll die in alabama... [22|11:31] * Joins: Gaspar (~gaspart@host118-109.pool80117.interbusiness.it) [22|11:32] Why hasn't anyone done the Hebrews 40 days in the desert as a blog? [22|11:32] don, [22|11:32] Torah fanfiction [22|11:32] oh god. [22|11:32] joho: stone's pretty heavy to carry around [22|11:32] joho: Moses was already carrying the blog of god, around. [22|11:32] Well, I've always thought Moses was a bit of a Mary Sue. Parting the Red Sea and all, and being God's favorite. [22|11:32] project - audio tech is now here - let me know if feed quality improves [22|11:33] Then we've got Jesus, of course... Don't get me started on that. [22|11:33] ethanz: roger, wilco [22|11:33] Moses had trouble speaking. Blogging would have been a natural. [22|11:33] project - did you heara change [22|11:33] Project, someone just came and tweaked the console [22|11:33] ethanz: i'll let you know as soon as someone with a high-pitched voice speaks. [22|11:34] would you like me to screech into the mike? ;-) [22|11:34] don't know if its been asked before but, why does wikipedia have no ads? the money from ads can be used in favor of public service, like for tsunami disaster or some funding of wikipedia related technologies? [22|11:34] here's what the console looks like [22|11:34] http://www.cadence90.com/wp/index.php?p=3502 [22|11:34] RMacK: I kill you :P [22|11:34] project - the answer may be that people are swallowing mics here - console has treble all the way down, midrange 3/4 of the way down... [22|11:34] (re NYT scenario advocated just now, have them publish metadata w/ checksum of the jpg to help folks figure out what's been subsequently photoshop'd) [22|11:34] Ah, all those knobs and buttons. [22|11:34] ethanz: heh :) [22|11:34] lovely... [22|11:34] my preciousssssss! [22|11:34] we eat mikes in addition to kittens... [22|11:34] is it a bad idea that wikipedia starts to accept advertisements? [22|11:34] Chris Lydon just walked in. [22|11:35] RMacK: let me go ready my NATO standard AWP riffle before you do the screeching. [22|11:35] ? [22|11:35] * Joins: fpzilla_ (~chatzilla@adsl-68-78-239-39.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net) [22|11:35] project ;-P [22|11:35] * Quits: Rdsmith4 (Rdsmith4@ip24-252-34-205.om.om.cox.net) ("Lord, what fools these mortals be!") [22|11:35] fpzilla! [22|11:35] Also mention Common Content (http://commoncontent.org), catalog of Creative Commons content. [22|11:35] Hi Lisa! [22|11:35] Or index. [22|11:35] * Joins: guest276 (~92732e58@67.19.41.132) [22|11:36] We should have a round at the end of this of everybody just saying their favorite/weirdest/most interesting site related to the topic [22|11:36] goat.ce? :) [22|11:36] "Wonderful thing about living in the US is that anybody can sue anybody else." Dave Sifry [22|11:36] that's gonna really drive immigration! [22|11:36] :) [22|11:37] don't know if its been asked before but, why does wikipedia have no ads? the money from ads can be used in favor of public service, like for tsunami disaster or some funding of wikipedia related technologies? [22|11:37] the community opposition to that is very strong [22|11:37] Oh, hey, I have a question for y'all. [22|11:37] dsifry++++++++++++++++ [22|11:37] it's funny how BigCorp want all the advantages of globalization, but they want NONE of the backlash. [22|11:38] and as there is always the possibility of the community taking the content and setting up elsewhere... [22|11:38] I remember somebody showing a site where news was shown on a single page, and the more reports of a particular thing [22|11:38] cadence90: ? [22|11:38] cadence90: oh, so if i lived in the states and had kids and they got an immunisation shot and it was contaminated, i can sue the drug company? [22|11:38] Guardian Uk has all of its archive online for free [22|11:38] and the more reports, the larger it appeared. [22|11:38] people would set up an ad-free wrapper for wikipedia, which'd leach traffic and google karma away.... [22|11:39] caomhin, everybody knows you can't sue a drug company, don't be silly :) [22|11:39] guardian rocks [22|11:39] I have a few guardian rocks in front of my driveway [22|11:39] Are they like pet rocks? [22|11:39] the SF Chronicle is another paper which has most articles since 95 online free [22|11:40] coaimhin, no, you can sue anyone except large contributors to the Republican party [22|11:40] Cool. [22|11:40] but if you publish the reports, how much money the ads generate, and a poll for how the money will be used, people will eventually click on those ads [22|11:40] That's another good list of links: newspapers with open archives. [22|11:40] * JRM has to resist the temptation ot make Wikilinks in this channel. He has a feeling many people won't get them. :-) [22|11:40] go jay! [22|11:40] Jay+++ [22|11:40] jay+++ [22|11:40] joho: ah. well that's consistent. i remove my objection. [22|11:40] Talk about Guardian, jay [22|11:40] better than pet rocks, they keep the snowplow from digging up my lawn. [22|11:41] why they do it, but others say they can't afford it? [22|11:41] BBC has also free archive [22|11:41] YAY JAY!!! (screeching) [22|11:41] Although it's public [22|11:41] i've been to so many journalism conferences where the papers had reprints of the series they are proud of [22|11:42] rmack, don't screech with your mouth open. we can see the kitty remains. [22|11:42] eew [22|11:42] great reporting that lots more people than journalists should see [22|11:42] journalists get treated like mushrooms :) [22|11:42] :-P joho [22|11:42] some papers do archive their special reports, but not as many as should [22|11:42] ethanz: yeah. much better. this guy who's talking about has a high-pitched voice. [22|11:42] journalists actually have very little rights over their own work, which is pretty crummy [22|11:42] Hoder: and bbc has this project, where you will be able to see every show aired on BBC from internet.. [22|11:42] BBC has also free archive [22|11:42] it's Jay Rosen of PressThink. [22|11:43] Treated like mushrooms? [22|11:43] BBC has license fee revenue from everyone with a TV in the UK... [22|11:43] Eaten by hippies? [22|11:43] Greensboro: The Lexington and Concord of the new rev, all rolled into one. [22|11:43] ethanz: no, no, i take that back. suppress the high-pitcha bit more, please. [22|11:43] jonl yeah news management treats journos like slaves. [22|11:43] what happened to BBC creative commons thing btw? [22|11:43] i also am skeptical of how much revenue archives bring [22|11:43] and some of the revs could be made up by ads [22|11:43] if journalists had some rights to their own content things would be very, very different. [22|11:43] I doubt many individuals pay $2.50 for a 600 world NYT article [22|11:43] 'Creative archive'? I think still happening... [22|11:43] I mean BBC using P2P for all its audio/video archive [22|11:44] RMacK: yeah, I know... it's time for journos to RISE UP! [22|11:44] it doesn't benefit journalists to put their stuff behind the paywall. [22|11:44] With Jay in the lead! [22|11:44] REVOLUTION!! [22|11:44] the only people who will buy it are the ones who have a corporate expense account [22|11:44] Which way to the barricades? [22|11:44] and they probably already have nexis access [22|11:44] RMacK: when? [22|11:44] bbc archive will be english people only! [22|11:44] We need to photoshop the Delacroix painting with Jay as Madame Liberty. [22|11:44] project - there's just not that much else we can do... treble is down -30db at this point [22|11:44] i mean multimedia pieces [22|11:44] ethanz: give that man some testosterone :) [22|11:44] tetosterone, even :) [22|11:45] english people, nah [22|11:45] heh [22|11:45] hey, we've been chewing testosterone like candy at this conf [22|11:45] I think we know whose interest... [22|11:45] the Welsh would riot... [22|11:45] project - jay's balding - probably too much testosterone... [22|11:45] jonl: who's interest is it from? [22|11:45] Who in NYT editorial loves blogs? [22|11:45] s/from// [22|11:45] The guy who's talking is Robert Cox [22|11:45] * Joins: Matthew (Matt@68.49.102.9) [22|11:45] that said this election was about the effect of blogs on politics? [22|11:46] or at least that's the nametag I see in front of him. [22|11:46] that is robert cox [22|11:46] Project: a financial thing. [22|11:46] jonl: [[Noam Chomsky]] [22|11:46] Yeah, him too. [22|11:46] do journalaists retain any rights to work that their papers have published? [22|11:46] hehe. [22|11:46] I wonder if Chomsky has ever IRCed. [22|11:46] [[Rage Against The Machine]] [22|11:47] fpzilla: probably not, depends on contract, now? [22|11:47] Who in NYT editorial loves blogs who said this election was about the effect of blogs on politics? [22|11:47] cadence90: IRC would be the only way to get chomsky's POV in the mainstream. [22|11:47] cadence, no chomsky hasn't irc'ed because oin a chat cchanel, other people can talk [22|11:47] time for new contracts to pull good work out into the free zone [22|11:47] haha [22|11:47] but many people don't know how to get a rss feed [22|11:47] project, the bookstore around the corner has a big shelf of his books. [22|11:48] he's not exactly pushing out manuscripts written on TP out a chink in the wall of the prison. [22|11:48] archiving for pay is consistent with the way other proprietary outfits operate. [22|11:48] cadence, nice imate :) [22|11:48] cadence90: My own bookshelf has most of his books, too. [22|11:48] who is she now? [22|11:48] image = image [22|11:48] Yeah, right now, it's dummies pay retail, smarties who know RSS get old articles for free. [22|11:48] people can use this form [22|11:48] http://nytimes.blogspace.com/genlink [22|11:48] imate=image [22|11:48] ? [22|11:48] though it doesn't always work [22|11:48] who was the NYT woman just spole? [22|11:49] Sorry, I don't know. [22|11:49] This guy is too far away from me for me to read his nametag. [22|11:49] joho, who was that? [22|11:49] * Joins: zwitter (~kate@larousse.wikipedia.org) [22|11:49] It also means that people are more inclined to copy and circulate the whole article rather than point to a link. Which reduces traffic to the site. [22|11:49] But that's crap! [22|11:49] And infringes. [22|11:50] * Quits: jeroenvrp (~jeroenvrp@uptown.xs4all.nl) ("Chatzilla 0.9.66e [Firefox 1.0/20041202]") [22|11:50] where does bill see the new rev coming from wrt archives? I missed it. [22|11:50] there was an essay on jay's site on this [22|11:50] http://journalism.nyu.edu/pubzone/weblogs/pressthink/2005/01/07/wldm_perm.html [22|11:50] Church and state presumes that newspapers will treat reporters like they're worth something. [22|11:50] Companies always want loyalty from employees, but when you want them to return it, it's screw you. [22|11:51] Journalists should start looking after their own interests and their own work, the corporation won't. [22|11:51] Note ... something real just might have happened. Red alert, actual difference (reconsideration of the pay-archive business model) [22|11:51] cadence90: my point exactly [22|11:51] jay's pointing to the guardian [22|11:52] which finger is he pointing with [22|11:52] joho: good [22|11:52] 25 people linked to it on del.icio.us [22|11:52] tnx jay for the Guardian [22|11:52] jay: exactly. [22|11:52] Does anybody in the room know who the current speaker -- the guy with the white hair and beard? [22|11:52] http://www.guardian.co.uk/gucontacts/page/0,7024,332017,00.html Simon Waldman [22|11:53] ...that wasn't an answer re current speaker, but link to grauniad guy [22|11:53] thx [22|11:53] from the la weekly: [22|11:53] http://journalism.nyu.edu/pubzone/weblogs/pressthink/2005/01/07/wldm_perm.html The Importance of Being Permanent [22|11:53] However, the Calendar staff is known to be peeved about the łletąs-try-to-make-a-buck˛ decision to change online viewing of Calendarąs articles and reviews from free to subscription. LAT sources say Ouroussoff nagged bitterly and repeatedly about it. As for Dargis, in the words of one colleague, łShe was very aware of being cut off from the world because Web sites that compile reviews would not have access to her work. And in th [22|11:53] e current environment out there, the Internet is where reviews are really bandied about.˛ That issue, though, łhad nothing to do with my decision to leave,˛ says Dargis. [22|11:53] rmack ++ [22|11:53] (is that the best url, dunno) [22|11:53] rmack, jill looked pained at the "just settling" comment. ouch! [22|11:53] Nicolai Ouroussoff the la times architectural critic [22|11:54] ha!! let her look pained. [22|11:54] that was a ways into this piece [22|11:54] heh [22|11:54] http://www.laweekly.com/ink/04/32/deadline-finke.php [22|11:54] * Joins: Skapi (~skapi58@Orleans-ppp42664.sympatico.ca) [22|11:54] they grey hair beard guy is from Poynter, the nonprofit which owns the St. Pete Times [22|11:54] One way that blogs could make newspapers better is to reduce the amazing amount of waste. [22|11:54] I can't see his nametag [22|11:55] When the revolution comes, advertisers will be 4th up the wall ;) [22|11:55] jwales - bill mitchell [22|11:55] So much of a reporter's work never sees daylight at all, nevermind what happens after publication. [22|11:55] grey hair beard guy is named bill mitchell [22|11:55] cadence, did you get that? [22|11:55] she was asking [22|11:55] and st. pete times quoted my work today, so I loves them... [22|11:55] Put everything -- interviews, articles that didn't get published -- everything -- online. [22|11:55] then you can put ads on those pages too [22|11:55] and get something back, for everybody, for the work that gets done. [22|11:55] I have a funny story about the St. Pete Times and journalistic integrity. [22|11:55] Don't waste. [22|11:55] one of the reasons you don't hear about this is that reporters won't write about their employers [22|11:56] Is he Romanesko? [22|11:56] DaveScripting, yes. [22|11:56] webcred.wikicities.com [22|11:56] wiki rocks [22|11:56] this is what joey of suck said about the ny times and archives back in 98 at a new media and journalism conf [22|11:56] http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2004/12/8/122934/233/8#8 [22|11:56] http://www.stpetetimes.com/2004/11/08/Floridian/There_s_no_end_to_it.shtml [22|11:56] They had me climb a tree for the photo. [22|11:56] Where's that wiki? [22|11:56] heh [22|11:56] webcred.wikicities.com I think [22|11:57] http://webcred.wikicities.com [22|11:57] o, yah [22|11:57] jwales: good progress. the hitchhikers guide to the galaxy mentions that it was a bad idea to come down from the trees in the first place :) [22|11:57] But they were having some trouble with the photo [22|11:57] Got that. [22|11:57] I suggested photoshopping [22|11:57] and they were like "whoa, we're the newspaper we don't photoshop" [22|11:57] is wikicities free for anything? [22|11:57] * dyer raises hand [22|11:57] And I was like "Um, you're having me pretend to work from a tree" [22|11:57] BREAK! [22|11:58] sure is hard to follow both of these at once... [22|11:58] Hoder: yes, see http://www.wikicities.com/ - funded by advertising but open-ended. [22|11:58] That looks great, Jim. [22|11:58] who knows when the transcript will be online? [22|11:58] You look very ... natural. [22|11:58] jwales: better wireless reception :) [22|11:58] tarzan.wikipedia.org [22|11:58] * Joins: deusx (~deusx@pcp06251357pcs.roylok01.mi.comcast.net) [22|11:58] Ah, we have music. [22|11:58] eek [22|11:58] ha. [22|11:59] what was that?? [22|11:59] play some podcast during the breaks guys [22|11:59] did anybody else just lose the audio. [22|11:59] it'd be fun [22|11:59] ok [22|11:59] yes, lost. [22|11:59] I'm gonna leave [22|11:59] you people and your broadband. sniff. [22|11:59] yes, just lost audio [22|11:59] <_sj_> who is Ari? [22|12:00] * caoimhin shakes fist at eircom. [22|12:00] see you all [22|12:00] * Quits: Hoder (~chatzilla@CPE0006258dc65e-CM024350003230.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com) ("Chatzilla 0.9.66e [Firefox 1.0/20041107]") [22|12:00] * Quits: Skapi (~skapi58@Orleans-ppp42664.sympatico.ca) [22|12:00] (hi danb) [22|12:00] where's the audio? [22|12:00] who tripped on the wire? [22|12:00] ack ... i had the webcast in the buffer so I could catch up and that cleared the buffer [22|12:00] (Behind his back, and having just joined...) Was that the true Hoder? [22|12:00] "Wacky music"? :-) [22|12:01] i'm gonna go play some dota [22|12:01] mahu: You have a question about his credibility? How will you know? :-) [22|12:02] ari is my name on daily kos (it is my middle name) [22|12:02] anyone know how to listen to streaming on a nokia 6620? I could get to the link but it wouldn;t play. David B.? [22|12:02] Yes, I just thought maybe it had been clear to many, and I just was looking for glamor... [22|12:02] no idea. [22|12:03] does it have a real player? [22|12:03] mahu: I believe it was the true Hoder ... but what is truth? :-) [22|12:03] yeah, i was about to say, you nee a device with a real player [22|12:03] audio is back. [22|12:03] StaciDKramer: my trio plays the stream fine [22|12:03] LOL [22|12:04] Real changed their label from "Buffering" to "Loading" :) [22|12:04] What great audio! [22|12:04] heheh [22|12:04] mahu: I can feel the love. [22|12:04] * Joins: Amgine_z (~chatzilla@S0106000d93cb35a5.vc.shawcable.net) [22|12:04] may i go on record and say "FUCK COPYRIGHT" [22|12:04] audio is not back yet [22|12:05] I have audio. [22|12:05] i got audio, too [22|12:05] where's the audio feed? [22|12:05] Audio present [22|12:05] i was going to say, all this discussion about charging for content and no comments about the music copyright... [22|12:05] mmmmmm thai isp at it again? [22|12:05] Get a realaudio bleeplet from the webcred main page [22|12:06] got it [22|12:06] Don't know if that was too helpful... [22|12:06] http://iopforum.harvard.edu:8080/ramgen/encoderold/live [22|12:06] http://iopforum.harvard.edu:8080/ramgen/encoderold/live [22|12:07] * Amgine_z is now known as Amgine [22|12:08] cool, everyone saying rooba-rooba and dave winer baritone-ing in the background [22|12:08] Amgine: you look much better now! [22|12:08] it does have a real player [22|12:08] hey, someone do some testing now [22|12:08] Sorry... slow to wake up... [22|12:08] fyi.. the wiki is at http://webcred.wikicities.com/index.php/Main_Page [22|12:08] ty mahu [22|12:08] * Parts: jwales (~jwales@Jimbo-Wales.wikipedia) ("Leaving") [22|12:08] RMacK: good time to do some sound testing. [22|12:08] There's also an ongoing article being developed at http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Conference_discusses_the_credibility_of_blogs [22|12:08] RMacK: say: "In Soviet Russia, wiki edits you!" [22|12:09] * Joins: Rdsmith4 (Rdsmith4@ip24-252-34-205.om.om.cox.net) [22|12:09] * Joins: rachel (~chatzilla@host81-153-23-236.range81-153.btcentralplus.com) [22|12:09] oops sorry was away from screen. hows the sound? [22|12:09] much better [22|12:09] much much better [22|12:10] <_sj_> last session starting. [22|12:10] * Joins: Grunt (~grunt@grunt.wikipedia) [22|12:10] RMacK: come on. you want to make a soviet russia joke ;) [22|12:10] [22|12:10] * Project2501a gives Amgine Greek coffee [22|12:10] [22|12:10] it's really strong. [22|12:10] project ;-) [22|12:10] Glogsphere???? [22|12:10] WTF [22|12:10] Blogsphere???? [22|12:11] Blogosphhere [22|12:11] really strong as in too hot, or ok? [22|12:11] someone club that man on the head with a cluebat. please. [22|12:11] It's a widely accepted concept, Project [22|12:11] the sound is clearer and crisp [22|12:11] *sigh* [22|12:11] ok [22|12:11] i'll ask the tech guy to pod it down or is it ok now? [22|12:12] Amgine: as long as nobody starts talking about "Synnergy" [22|12:12] much better [22|12:12] * Quits: rachel (~chatzilla@host81-153-23-236.range81-153.btcentralplus.com) (Client Quit) [22|12:12] Or verbs impact? [22|12:12] I like the joho model [22|12:12] Sigh, shorter speaker "Oh my god, writers don't all writer the same thing!" [22|12:12] :-) [22|12:13] great, fp, because joho is looking for models. How tall are you? [22|12:13] any thoughts from the journalists here about snowmail? http://www.channel4.com/news/snowmail/ [22|12:13] We're soon unveiling our line of 3-piece suits. [22|12:13] ummm... i work in my pjs [22|12:13] does anyone sell blogging pjs? [22|12:13] new biz model! [22|12:13] But what does this mean for the writosphere? [22|12:13] accountability for bloggin? [22|12:13] wtf... [22|12:13] i think i'm going to have to hold a pajama party as my next conference format. [22|12:14] every news program should have an email list that [22|12:14] That's sort of the focus of the conference, Project. [22|12:14] rmack ++++ [22|12:14] "How come everybody talks about bloggers in pajamas when all [22|12:14] I keep finding are corporate lawyers with ties to Republican [22|12:14] Administrations and big, fat corporate clients?

[22|12:14] Blogging conference. [22|12:14] no pj's, no admit. [22|12:14] srhodes: it would be nice. [22|12:14]

What's going on here?" - Richard Succer, in the web page comments [22|12:14] nightlne has one of the best. sometimes the emails are like mini-essays on journalism [22|12:15] did y'all really get hewitt's book as schwag last night? [22|12:15] they used to archive them but now they just have the latest one at [22|12:15] http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/News/story?id=314 [22|12:15] Great picture: [22|12:15] http://www.flickr.com/photos/51035577930@N01/3649004/ [22|12:15] what about the idea of a blog-ing news? yesterday someone was talking about polling the audience to see what to cover. what if it was done more transparently? [22|12:15] Exponential increase == power law! [22|12:15] Make sure to look closely for the kitten [22|12:15] yum.. kittens... [22|12:16] dsifry - search flickr tags for webcred for more kittens [22|12:16] Where is goes is a few winnners, and everyone being told "Well, you can write for your friends, doesn't that make you happy?" [22|12:16] Forks at ready [22|12:16] I got it from http://www.technorati.com/tag/webcred [22|12:16] * Quits: cadence90 (~lisa@ksgb092.harvard.edu) (Connection timed out) [22|12:17] great picture ... http://sandhill.typepad.com/sandhill_trek/2005/01/snowed_in.html [22|12:17] no kittens [22|12:17] have a system like scoop as deployed at kuro5hin.org where people vote for the stories to show up on the main page. then each week do news stories based on the popular stories from the week before. [22|12:17] it's like the poll driven model, but it's more transparent. [22|12:18] Sigh. First, the hype. Then the hype explanation. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. [22|12:18] I think I'm going to repeat "power in the blogosphere" a few times. [22|12:18] * danbri wonders if anyone from the IndyMedia effort is at the conference [22|12:18] not news, caoimhin. That's commentary on old news. [22|12:19] Amgine: it depends on who contributes stories. [22|12:19] "There has to be a mechanism for controlling that". RIGHT! [22|12:19] caoimhin: that's still like slashdot. [22|12:19] If you're not getting the investigation until a week after the event, earliest... [22|12:19] who's currently talking? [22|12:19] blogs are far from monolithic -- something bloggers and non-bloggers tend to forget. they come in all shapes and sizes and exist for lots of different reasons. [22|12:20] danbri no unfortunately not.. but anybody can join the wiki etc. [22|12:20] alex jones is talking. [22|12:20] Amgine: i dunno how quick tv can turn around. if it could pick the top 5 stories from a few hours before, verify them and put them out then make it a daily show. [22|12:20] [22|12:20] I can imagine little light bulbs going off over his head [22|12:21] I've done some stuff with indymedia and a lot of work with paper tiger tv which is a grandmother of indymedia [22|12:21] StaciDKramer: i mentioned that before. i was informed they're all cms systems. [22|12:21] check out brendan's blog post at http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/webcred/index.php?p=53 [22|12:22] But they don't all have the same goals of lofty amibitions. for instance, heard the guy behind Birding baylon on NPR this morning http://birdingbabylon.blogspot.com/ -- he blogs as a diversion and a way to share thoughts he'd otherwise have to keep to himself [22|12:22] The concept of managing content is fundamental to blogs/everything. [22|12:22] SPEAK UP! [22|12:22] yes, please. speak up [22|12:22] RMacK: wunderbar. [22|12:22] I'm gonna blog it. [22|12:22] ... [22|12:22] StaciDKramer: yes. i have a blog to screw around with blosxom. [22|12:23] rmack, can you lean over and ask John to speak up? [22|12:23] Some people write diary, some people write chat, some people write punditry, take N. [22|12:23] put a note in front of him joho [22|12:23] Did anyone talk about memes? [22|12:24] Blessedly, no [22|12:24] poor jpalfrey - I asked him to warn people not to eat the mics, and he's the only one taking the adivce to heart... [22|12:24] palfrey ++++++++++++++++++ [22|12:24] a little better now [22|12:24] "Public interest"? [22|12:24] I just think when people talk about standards and the like they need to realize that not everyone wants or needs them [22|12:24] which public? [22|12:25] wait [22|12:25] what distruptive technology is he talking about? [22|12:25] [22|12:25] sowwy [22|12:25] there's no distruptive tech. there's distruprive morons. [22|12:26] disruptive tech = weblogs, citizen journalism. (in this case disruptive = interesting) [22|12:26] Uhm, any form of press is a disruptive technology. From the townsquare posting board to RSS. [22|12:26] Project2501a: There's definitely shifts. The outcomes are not determined. [22|12:26] * Joins: rachel (~chatzilla@host81-153-187-239.range81-153.btcentralplus.com) [22|12:26] why is it disruptive? [22|12:26] Disruptive means a non-commercial source of news or information. [22|12:26] * Joins: BF (~BF@rodos.eecs.harvard.edu) [22|12:26] palfrey ++++ people who will exercise the most influence are the people who arent in this room [22|12:26] oh. my bad [22|12:26] <_sj_> some of us in this room *are* writing to wikinews :) [22|12:26] That's fluff, the "little people". [22|12:27] It circumvents forms of censorship and information control, project [22|12:27] sethf, the way you take it says more about you than about john. [22|12:27] * Project2501a kicks /lib/modules/linux/kernel/language/english/dictionary.ko [22|12:27] http://davetravel.scripting.com/2005/01/22#a467 [22|12:27] http://www.flickr.com/photos/kombinat/3434617/ [22|12:27] * Quits: JRM (~JRM@a82-92-119-11.adsl.xs4all.nl) ("I've had enough, you do it") [22|12:27] joho, that's ad-hominem. [22|12:28] oh, but your comment wasn't? [22|12:28] how about a hand for all wikipedians editing now? [22|12:28] and some sandwiches, too [22|12:28] if you interpretation is evidence based, then let's hear it. [22|12:28] rmack: It would help if any papers produced are not pdf-only a la the Poynter paper. Everything should be available in html. [22|12:29] not fluff Seth [22|12:29] I think you know I mean it [22|12:29] photos, cool, thanks [22|12:29] Correct. My statement was about mathematics. Yours was about invalidating by saying it was wrong because it was ill-humored. The two aren't the same. [22|12:29] * Joins: ploppy (~ploppy@218.191.64.102) [22|12:29] agreed, seth. There is a personal attack, however, contained in your claim that john was lying. [22|12:30] the area under the tail! calculus of blog [22|12:30] * Parts: ploppy (~ploppy@218.191.64.102) [22|12:30] project - I will FTP you a sandwich. roast beef or tuna? [22|12:30] I know you mean it. It's nice. But it's still fluff, sorry. [22|12:30] fluff=? [22|12:30] I'm not lying [22|12:30] [22|12:30] I didn't say he was lying. [22|12:30] there's nothing I believe in more deeply [22|12:30] so what do you mean by fluff, seth? [22|12:31] i take "fluff" to mean: stuff you say in order to sound nice but in which you don't believe. [22|12:31] fluff = low density content [22|12:31] I may be dense, it's true [22|12:31] No, I mean "stuff" like a political campaign speech, "I'm for motherhood, and apple pie". [22|12:31] there's a graph showing traffic growth of the nyt and wikipedia. but they serve different things. the nyt does news which is of interest to a set number of people. wikipedia covers a number of topics. it might be used as a source of info for an nyt article, or it might be how to deal with pet hygine. i'm not sure what wikipedia is supposed to imply? [22|12:31] (the graphh is linked on wikinews) [22|12:32] then i withdraw my personal criticism and apologize for it... [22|12:32] ...but maintain that you're wrong [22|12:32] i like wikipedia, and i'm mildly annoyed at the ny times, but they're apples and oranges. [22|12:32] low blood sugar ... [22|12:32] joho: or what he said is wrong. [22|12:32] Thank you. I would not attack John personally. But that doesn't make [22|12:32] correct jonl. [22|12:32] Seth, as a person, is neither right nor wrong. [22|12:32] :) [22|12:32] of course, and no intention to imply otherwise [22|12:33] Yes,caoimhin, but Wikipedia's "Current events" is viewed by more people than most any other page on the internet. [22|12:33] a statement useful. [22|12:33] there's a name for the trope: person for what the person said. (I don't know the name of it) [22|12:33] (thanks joho all the same) [22|12:33] that term is "ad hominem", to the man. [22|12:33] now i have to attack you, john, in order to look fair. [22|12:33] (I personally am a little bit wrong, but that's an accident of birth.) [22|12:33] bring it on joho [22|12:33] I can take it [22|12:33] joho, I write from my perspective - which is down at the Long Tail. [22|12:34] no, that's the logical fallacy. But there's a term like synedoche, which I'm 100% sure I'm misspelling. [22|12:34] University of Texas+++ [22|12:34] a form of rhetoric [22|12:34] John talks from his perspective, which is quite higher than mine. [22|12:34] Seth I assure you I too am in the long tail [22|12:34] This DOES affect things. [22|12:34] This MIGHT be fair use! [22|12:34] synecdoche [22|12:34] ad humminen .. annoying debating technique, person hums and whistles thru teeth [22|12:34] (referring to lectures) [22|12:35] fpzilla_: :) [22|12:35] Heh. [22|12:35] Well, maybe University of Texas --- [22|12:35] Not just UofTX [22|12:35] Someone from Rice University commented the other day that it's like growing mushrooms, everyone's always in the dark. [22|12:36] I said the University of Texas is like EATING mushrooms... [22|12:36] You should see the forms you have to fill out to publish course materials in Singapore. Omigod [22|12:36] Three movies... [22|12:36] http://archive.scripting.com/2005/01/22#When:12:29:35PM [22|12:37] for rhetorical figures: http://www.uky.edu/ArtsSciences/Classics/rhetoric.html [22|12:37] Tu joho [22|12:38] _sj_, does this session have a title or focus? [22|12:39] <_sj_> no, it's a general wrapping up... [22|12:40] <_sj_> I have an IRC question, perhaps ethan can ask for me :) [22|12:40] if anyone from the IRC [22|12:40] wants to say something [22|12:40] I can read it out [22|12:40] (ez is talking now) [22|12:41] amen ezuckerman+++++++++++++++ [22|12:41] <_sj_> The majority of news I read in my papers [22|12:41] i thought ofa few things last night [22|12:41] <_sj_> could be produced cheaply by a wide net of individuals [22|12:41] I aslo agree with EZ - as I say, it matters where having an opinion is a real revolutionary act - but not where having an opinion is market research. [22|12:41] Hey, random question, having enjoyed this, never having chatted before, and well aware that this one is going to vaporize soon: Is there any way to find high-quality interesting chat out there? [22|12:42] note to the Planet's PR department: http://radio.weblogs.com/0143327/ [22|12:42] <_sj_> newspaper spekaers focused on the cost of big bureaus; [22|12:42] The concept of credibility is entirely wrapped up in the idea of verifiability. Use of sources/references is vital, BUT SO IS TRANSPARENCY. You need to *publish* those sources/references. [22|12:42] dberlind++ [22|12:43] * Parts: Rdsmith4 (Rdsmith4@ip24-252-34-205.om.om.cox.net) [22|12:43] <_sj_> the expensive hard-to-do-as-a-hive tasks produce a small fraction of most paper content. [22|12:45] mahu: several high quality chats here on freenode. [22|12:45] * Joins: sbw01 (~sbwaters@syr-24-24-27-231.twcny.rr.com) [22|12:46] Try #joiito [22|12:46] noosphere [22|12:47] Do people really think of corporate news as "order"? [22|12:47] blogosphere=noosphere, that is. [22|12:47] "energy where order meets the chaos" [22|12:47] earlier people were speaking about free software. how much coverage is given to software patents, pressure on the eu for s/w patents and the issue of ip rights in trade agreements? [22|12:47] UTx Ownership of Lectures page: http://www.utsystem.edu/OGC/IntellectualProperty/lectures.htm [22|12:47] Hi. Sorry I'm late. Pipes froze. I miss anything? [22|12:47] sorry sbw - that happened to me earlier in the week [22|12:48] mahu: #fedora-ppc is a great channel for discussing issues with fedora linux on imacs and the like... :) [22|12:48] Oh, I see the issue at UTX... actually makes sense. [22|12:48] They're talking about commercial note-taking. [22|12:48] And whether it infringes. [22|12:49] sbw01: all the ny times folks apologised for their poor coverage of whitewater. [22|12:49] Always a mistake to take something out of context. [22|12:49] (ok, that's a lie) [22|12:49] No, it's not. [22|12:49] Think about other uses of notes! [22|12:49] caoimhin: whitewater -- Heh! [22|12:49] No, I meant Jon or whoever read a piece from the page took it out of context... [22|12:49] and didn't mention that the issue was commercial note-taking. [22|12:50] * Parts: BF (~BF@rodos.eecs.harvard.edu) ("Leaving") [22|12:50] * Quits: fpzilla_ (~chatzilla@adsl-68-78-239-39.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net) ("ChatZilla 0.9.52B [Mozilla rv:1.6/20040113]") [22|12:50] Or that the page does say that notes don't necessarily infringe. [22|12:50] But focusing on the commercial note-taking still kills all other uses of notes, such as tutoring or reporting on the lecture in the news. [22|12:51] * Joins: fpzilla_ (~chatzilla@adsl-68-78-239-39.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net) [22|12:51] I dunno, I haven't read the whole page. [22|12:51] I don't know that they're saying noncommercial uses are a concern. [22|12:51] Nor I, but I've run up against this specific issue at other universities. [22|12:53] The point of worrying about blanket copyrighting things as a policy is very real; it is an insidious issue for reporters/journalists, and for everyone else as well. [22|12:53] * Joins: jz (~jz@ksgb241.harvard.edu) [22|12:53] hi jz [22|12:53] hiya [22|12:54] on utexas link - it is no doubt well intentioned, but the suggested license is, to me, unreal [22|12:54] and i think fairly represents a fundamental conflict of views over what actually goes on in a classroom (or ought to) [22|12:54] Did you read the whole page? [22|12:55] y [22|12:56] What did yu think of the concern about commercial note-taking? [22|12:56] I think something targeted to just that phenomenon -- [22|12:56] What's a good way to address that? [22|12:56] which, to be sure, I wouldn't target [22|12:56] would be much more reasonable [22|12:57] (Harvard has a policy about it, too, [22|12:57] at least for undergrads -- threatening them with expulsion [22|12:57] for selling their notes) [22|12:57] Interesting. Can they share them for free? [22|12:57] but the wording of the suggested license -- written by lawyers, who are careful people, for [22|12:57] * Parts: zwitter (~kate@larousse.wikipedia.org) [22|12:57] actual use in class -- is wildly broad. [22|12:58] Yes, I don't think the policy proscribes that. Let me find it [22|12:58] At the UofMN the lecturers are the holders of their own copyrights, and the U has its own policies for student's notes, commercial etc. [22|12:58] Not a big deal. [22|12:58] from a college newsletter: [22|12:58] DON'T SELL YOUR NOTES [22|12:58] You may occasionally encounter businesses that offer to buy lecture notes [22|12:58] from students for posting on websites. Please remember this important [22|12:58] statement on page 302 of the Handbook for Students: "Students who sell [22|12:58] lecture or reading notes, papers, or translations or who are employed by [22|12:58] tutoring school or term paper [companies] ... may be required to [22|12:58] withdraw. [22|12:58] ah [22|12:58] (i.e. one of the harvard houses) [22|12:59] harvard == teh suck. [22|12:59] You know, I've got constrained in my blogging... I don't blog so much about myself or peripheral interests... focused on political and business issues. [22|12:59] * Quits: guest447 (~42bc4663@67.19.41.132) (Remote closed the connection) [22|12:59] We should all remember that Blogging Can Be Fun. [22|13:00] <- doesn't have time to blog. [22|13:00] That's part of the ROI. :) [22|13:00] le ROI est mort [22|13:00] Yeah, time is an issue. WorldChanging wants long form essays, so I don't blog there as much as I'd like to. Just no time. [22|13:01] Are there sound files of the other sessions? [22|13:01] amgine, there will be [22|13:01] Amgine - not yet, but there will be Monday... [22|13:01] Jay Rosen: "this is a moment..." [22|13:01] Thanks... [22|13:01] convinced that it's a turning point [22|13:02] is the mail list open to non-invitees? [22|13:02] y [22|13:02] we can make it so [22|13:02] how? [22|13:02] ty [22|13:02] will figure it out [22|13:02] email me [22|13:02] jpalfrey@law.harvard.edu [22|13:02] we will sort [22|13:02] some are already online at http://mobcasting.blogspot.com [22|13:04] jonl: in a sense everyything is constrained. you choose content based on what your readers might like, you write based on the restrictions of the site or of the technology, and how much you write is constrained by the time you have. [22|13:04] srhodes ++ [22|13:04] <_sj_> thx for the text jz [22|13:04] * Parts: sannse (~sannse@Sannse.wikipedia) [22|13:05] If that's Jay speaking.. he's painting with a VERY broad brush. [22|13:05] Uniquely vulnerable? [22|13:05] sbw - indeed, Jay Rosen speaking [22|13:06] As someone in the business... I think he's being very simplistic. [22|13:06] the media is more than newspapers. the deadline pressures at time or non-daily formats can't be that bad? [22|13:06] * Quits: Matthew (Matt@68.49.102.9) ("Leaving") [22|13:06] and does every reporter have to finish a story in a day? [22|13:06] Just as bad caoimhin. [22|13:07] (even on a paper?) [22|13:07] Gawd. I hope he's moving his arms dramatically! [22|13:07] Even if your publication time is end of month, you're always scrambling to get everything done on time. [22|13:07] sbw - hand gestures, but no real arm waving... :-) [22|13:07] Caoimhin, a reporter at a small newspaper writes several stories a day bu might work weeks on a feature. [22|13:08] wow [22|13:08] i got a headache from listening on the speakers. [22|13:08] at too many papers they have to do more than one a day [22|13:08] erh, earphones, even. [22|13:08] What is the link to the Greensborough Newspaper? [22|13:08] I think http://www.news-record.com/ [22|13:08] ? [22|13:08] so... we have to go with the media we have, not the media we'd like to have? [22|13:09] Jay knows I spend my life thinking about integration of newspapers and people online... [22|13:09] intergration of newspapers and people online? [22|13:09] here's a post on that the news record is doing [22|13:09] http://blog.news-record.com/jrblog/archives/2005/01/update_on_the_l.html [22|13:09] ... that the best part of the internet multiplies the value of reporters. [22|13:10] Jay+++ [22|13:10] * Joins: bix (~bix@dsl093-038-153.pdx1.dsl.speakeasy.net) [22|13:10] The forces of denial aren't in retreat. That's like saying stupidity is in retreat. [22|13:11] sbw01: and god knows that's not true. [22|13:11] RMacK++ :-) ("interest feedback loop") [22|13:12] Editors are IMPORTANT -- so that you don't end up with the "Daily Me." [22|13:12] * Quits: Gaspar (~gaspart@host118-109.pool80117.interbusiness.it) [22|13:12] sbw01 - can you expand on that? [22|13:13] actually, hoder signed off... :-) [22|13:13] Hey bix - have you been listening? Got something to convey to the Short Head? [22|13:13] We give people what they want along with what we feel it is important for them to know, regardless if they want to or not. [22|13:13] is RMacK talking about the next generation of upper-middle class white geeky early-adopters then the ones who were on the internet in the 1970's and 1980's? what were the results of their forebearers? [22|13:14] People think they are right, not because they necessarily are right, but simply because they THINK they are right... [22|13:14] too much of what journalism infers people want I would argue that they don't need... bay area and boulder murder news for instance [22|13:14] * Quits: cbracy (~cbracy@ksgc057.harvard.edu) [22|13:14] If that's true, how are you going to discover when you are wrong. [22|13:14] dunno [22|13:14] <_sj_> transcripts up: [22|13:14] <_sj_> http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/sj/ [22|13:15] <_sj_> (from the morning) [22|13:15] Usually it's more of you think you're right until you're proven, to your own satisfaction, you are wrong. [22|13:15] _sj_ -- you're good! [22|13:15] Thanks, sj, great work [22|13:15] * Quits: guest826 (~ce0f8ab8@67.19.41.132) (Remote closed the connection) [22|13:16] wow is the convo over? [22|13:16] * Joins: guest826 (~ce0f8ab8@67.19.41.132) [22|13:16] nope [22|13:16] there is an open sessinj [22|13:16] starting at the half hour [22|13:16] i can't hear anything [22|13:16] Seriously, how many people are going to stick around for that session, especially given the snow coming in? [22|13:16] [22|13:16] Amgine: but where we need effort is in education, not blogging or journalism. [22|13:16] Project2501a: Audio is off now [22|13:17] oh, ok :) [22|13:17] sbw01: Amen [22|13:17] to answer seth, no i havent been listening, until 10 miuntes ago i was sleeping [22|13:17] i believe audio will be on for the afternoon. [22|13:17] sbw01: you learned most of what you know in conversations, not in classrooms. Blogging and journalisms are extensions of that conversation. [22|13:18] Amgine: journalism is not goshiping, man. [22|13:18] bix - oh well, there was quite a bit which was up your alley. [22|13:18] It most certainly is! [22|13:18] god damn it i need to get DSL and a computer [22|13:19] * Project2501a had the inspiration to toast his motherboard [22|13:19] butter and cinnamon sugar.... [22|13:19] * sbw01 is now known as sbw01-away [22|13:20] * Quits: guest826 (~ce0f8ab8@67.19.41.132) (Client Quit) [22|13:21] <_sj_> thanks you two. [22|13:22] <_sj_> afk for 5 min; hope nothing exciting happens... [22|13:23] * Project2501a prays to Jesus to appear while _sj_ is afk [22|13:24] what does that say about any christo-centrism of the blogosophere, and how does that impact its credibility [22|13:24] * bix hides [22|13:26] * Joins: guest926 (~8067bd5e@67.19.41.132) [22|13:27] fyi. irc has now being projected onto the screen [22|13:28] IN SOVIET RUSSIA, WIKI EDITS YOU [22|13:28] there [22|13:28] * sbw01-away is now known as sbw01 [22|13:28] i've made my mark [22|13:28] Hello out there in the audience! [22|13:28] Hello from Greece! [22|13:29] * Joins: guest447 (~42bc4663@67.19.41.132) [22|13:29] and San Francisco [22|13:29] Rome, NY [22|13:29] srhodes did you see my whisper? [22|13:29] nope sorry [22|13:29] i stepped away [22|13:29] any employers out there? I'm a Unix Coder, anybody wanna hire me? :) [22|13:29] hey no one is providing sandwiches and drinks at my house [22|13:29] link to resume on my webpage :) [22|13:30] *shameless plug* :) [22|13:30] see http://radio.weblogs.com/0143327/ [22|13:30] top entry. [22|13:30] * Joins: zittrain (~jz@ksgb241.harvard.edu) [22|13:30] What is a Unix Coder? [22|13:30] so, yeah, i keep wondering, who's gonna do the peer review for wikipedia before it's published as version 1.0? [22|13:30] <_sj_> [[thanks to all the organizers from me. this has been a great conf... and they all speak clearly ^^]] [22|13:30] Amgine: A Grue in the Dark [22|13:30] thanks [22|13:30] [[Grue]] [22|13:31] we'll see where it goes. [22|13:31] There's a color "grue"? [22|13:32] Hm [22|13:32] Since I'm a newspaper publisher, perhaps I should put my resume out, too. ;-) [22|13:32] Obligatory: PLEASE DONATE TO WIKIPEDIA :D [22|13:32] Heh, publisher? [22|13:32] Yup. [22|13:32] * Quits: cameronfactor (~cameron@ksgb253.harvard.edu) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) [22|13:32] now if you were a publisher -and- a grue... [22|13:32] We need a new [[Beowulf Cluster]] :) [22|13:32] LOL, a publisher Grue :D [22|13:32] eep! [22|13:33] * Joins: spocko (~spocko@dsl092-250-101.sfo4.dsl.speakeasy.net) [22|13:33] * Joins: mark_sweep (~m@24-193-203-202.nyc.rr.com) [22|13:34] dberlind, your reference link to Hoder's 'editor' site seems wrong. [22|13:35] * Joins: OldakQuill (~kisssatan@host81-130-179-113.in-addr.btopenworld.com) [22|13:35] * Joins: MykReeve (~MykReeve@spc1-watf2-3-0-cust165.asfd.broadband.ntl.com) [22|13:35] * Joins: adamhill (~adamhill@c-24-1-67-88.client.comcast.net) [22|13:35] * Joins: Anthere (Anthere@AClermont-Ferrand-251-1-43-173.w81-251.abo.wanadoo.fr) [22|13:35] * Quits: jz (~jz@ksgb241.harvard.edu) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) [22|13:36] * Parts: OldakQuill (~kisssatan@host81-130-179-113.in-addr.btopenworld.com) [22|13:36] * Parts: MykReeve (~MykReeve@spc1-watf2-3-0-cust165.asfd.broadband.ntl.com) [22|13:37] * Quits: dberlind (~david@h00a0c56b05ab.ne.client2.attbi.com) [22|13:38] * Joins: KingTT (KingTT@sa-63-249-100-160.cruzio.com) [22|13:38] <_sj_> open session starting [22|13:38] <_sj_> Last Chance to ask this amazing room of people questions [22|13:39] <_sj_> (but don't worry, "we'll go for as long as there is energy to keep going") [22|13:39] What... is the air-speed velocity of an unladen swallow? [22|13:39] lol :D [22|13:39] we're back. open session starting. [22|13:39] This is Jon Garfunkel. resident critic. [22|13:39] Dave Winer discussing ground rules. [22|13:40] I'll pass ... I can lose a lot more than I can win :-( [22|13:40] fyi.... we are projecting irc on screen [22|13:40] * Joins: guest826 (~ce0f8bda@67.19.41.132) [22|13:40] thanks [22|13:40] I suppose I should log off and log back in as me -- I hate being anonymous. [22|13:41] http://www.technorati.com [22|13:41] problem is youre going to be logging in and logging off publicly because you're using the computer attached to the projector. [22|13:41] I suppose I shouldn't mention in public that the kid has MegasXLR on the tv. [22|13:42] is jwales still there? [22|13:42] jwales had to catch a plane [22|13:42] he left around noon, EDT [22|13:43] thx ethanz [22|13:43] http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/webcred/index.php?p=52 [22|13:45] im shocked! shocked to find that gambling is going on in this establishment! [22|13:46] they should [22|13:46] [22|13:46] yes [22|13:47] you can link to something to criticize it [22|13:47] atrios certainly does that often [22|13:47] fyi irc is no longer visible on screen [22|13:48] we were that boring? [22|13:48] So comments about the infighting are inappropriate? [22|13:48] no people started projecting websites [22|13:48] heh [22|13:48] makes sense [22|13:48] two projectors for the next conf [22|13:48] or a hecklebo [22|13:48] t [22|13:48] [22|13:49] my websites extends three inches beyond the surface of the screen [22|13:49] Heh. Hecklebot could be cool [22|13:49] Hiya, bix! [22|13:49] jon [22|13:49] so what would y'all prefer: projected IRC or unprojected IRC. if you want it projected I'll get it put back up as soon as feasible (no longer driving that computer) [22|13:49] Long time, no see! [22|13:49] yes [22|13:49] If you project the IRC, I promise to behave. [22|13:49] http://www.toyz.org/cgi-bin/wiki.cgi?HeckleBot [22|13:49] RMacK: Thank you! we're just being cantankerous. [22|13:50] I think I'll keep my head down now, regardless, not worth it. [22|13:50] Seth... heh... I bet you don't. [22|13:50] i'm happy to do either. whatever y'all prefer [22|13:50] Project it! [22|13:51] We'd love to be the evil influence on the conference. [22|13:51] The writing on the wall! That's us! [22|13:51] * Joins: JGrif (~griffith1@146-115-46-88.c3-0.sbo-ubr2.sbo-ubr.ma.cable.rcn.com) [22|13:51] this is silly... you dont own what you link, you own your part of the conversation of which the link is a part [22|13:51] ok irc is up now [22|13:51] you can link to something because you think it raises interesting questions [22|13:51] but don't agree with it [22|13:51] right [22|13:51] Oooh, the Strib! I love the Strib. [22|13:52] srhodes, absolutely. [22|13:52] this is such a non-issue [22|13:52] unless you make it one [22|13:52] I agree. [22|13:52] This is Jon Garfunkel. I would like to say that there's less value the more links you have. [22|13:52] but i was called an evil kitten-eating evil cyborg for holding that view. [22|13:52] Hi, Jon. [22|13:52] he weblogsky [22|13:52] it depends on how you write online [22|13:52] I think Kos made it a big issue, folks, even if I happen to think it's a silly issue... [22|13:52] This is a lawyer talking, but the moderator is being needlessly confrontational. [22|13:52] RMacK: you have been known to eat more than a few kittens, and that's why. [22|13:52] some of my posts are very link heavy [22|13:53] * Joins: orbited (orbited@c-3f02e255.138-1-64736c11.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) [22|13:53] while others don't have any links [22|13:53] <_adam_gfx> ooh, an inverse linking metric [22|13:53] jonl :-p [22|13:53] * Joins: Kombinat (~Kombinat@pD95893C7.dip.t-dialin.net) [22|13:53] dave's professions of just trying to help the convo would be assisted if his tone wasnt so exasperated [22|13:53] <_adam_gfx> anti-Technorati [22|13:53] if there are a lot of links it helps to let your reader know which are the most important [22|13:53] To the room: we're probably lagging a bit. [22|13:53] not on MSNBC [22|13:53] since most people will only follow one or two links [22|13:54] the room is focusinig on ethics. I wanted ot ask about VALUE (not values) [22|13:54] but some people are interested enough to follow more [22|13:54] yes. [22|13:54] but there's a limit to how many links one gives. [22|13:54] and my posts are mostly notes to myself so i can find things later [22|13:54] "You are known by the company you keep" if you link to bad info, guess what? you're considered non-credible. [22|13:54] beating a dead horse!!!!!!!!!! [22|13:54] sifry++ [22|13:55] as I wrote in my Myths and Assertions: "No one explained what the purpose would be of adding links to bloggers would be. I don’t even know what the purpose is of Glenn Reynolds having a blog on MSNBC is, if he has his own blog, where he writes 150 times a week." [22|13:55] it was audio [22|13:56] who is the moderator, anyway? [22|13:56] Dave Winer is moderating [22|13:56] 'aight. thnx [22|13:56] That must be Jon [22|13:56] http://www.kottke.org/04/12/sony-ken-jennings-and-me [22|13:57] Jon checks on Jon. [22|13:57] heh [22|13:57] love it when speakers are talking to the irc and people in the room get all confused. [22|13:57] Heh. [22|13:57] makes your head spin actually [22|13:57] hard to follow both [22|13:57] i spent 3 years of my life that way [22|13:57] Especially when both have the same name. [22|13:57] Seems fairly logical to me... [22|13:57] :) [22|13:57] my head is totally spinning amongst the flying fur and kittie bones. [22|13:58] they should link when it makes sense [22|13:58] you have your own issues RMack [22|13:58] Eat a manx, RMacK. [22|13:58] The so-called-moderator needs to put the mic near the mouth. [22|13:58] for example a local sports section could link to the blogs on local teams [22|13:58] ok ok [22|13:58] Yeah, tell Winer to Jagger the mic. [22|13:58] they might only link to the ones they consider the best [22|13:59] lol jonl! [22|13:59] Sure, the links should have relevance. [22|13:59] palfrey+++++++++++++ [22|13:59] palfre++ [22|13:59] i know this will be a good comment [22|13:59] there is a lag in the webcast [22|13:59] I agree. sure. [22|14:00] lag is a fact of life [22|14:00] palfrey's point is good. yeah. [22|14:00] it was a good comment [22|14:00] * jonl wonders at the value of blogrolls. [22|14:00] Time cones [22|14:00] * Joins: cadence90 (~lisa@ksgb092.harvard.edu) [22|14:00] * Parts: mark_sweep (~m@24-193-203-202.nyc.rr.com) ("Leaving") [22|14:00] Blogrolls are probably just there to show the neighborhood you live in. [22|14:00] who transcribes the transcriber? [22|14:00] Jon L : [22|14:00] when he talks? [22|14:00] That's sj, who is doing the realtime transcription. [22|14:00] it was important that dean's blog linked to other blogs [22|14:00] I guess we have to :) [22|14:00] Right, the google thing. [22|14:00] yes, but does one live in NYC or Greenwich Villiage? [22|14:00] As a non-blogger/non-blog reader, what the heck is a blogroll? A list of "trusted bloggers"? [22|14:01] But it's not implemented, right? [22|14:01] technorati upagraded the link too. [22|14:01] with rel="tag" [22|14:01] implmented meaning in googles algorithm already? [22|14:01] It's "Things I Read" [22|14:01] YEah, I thought of tag firs. [22|14:01] first. [22|14:01] Tenchnorati [22|14:01] does it [22|14:01] that is such a great upgrade [22|14:01] link [22|14:01] is that all there is to it, you just have to add a rel to in? [22|14:01] "nofollow" [22|14:01] it? [22|14:01] will manila/radio support it? [22|14:01] rel="nofollow" [22|14:01] google did rel="nofollow" but the upgrade is only to fight spammers [22|14:01] I need to catch up on the whole technorati tag thing. [22|14:02] all great. let's move on. [22|14:02] But most people aren't putting those links in place, right? It's a matter of upgrading the software to add that to a comment link. [22|14:02] I like the idea but I have to figure out how to implement it on my weblog [22|14:02] http://www.google.com/googleblog/2005/01/preventing-comment-spam.html [22|14:02] Okay, I'm giving up trying to understand this speaker. [22|14:02] however, the nofollow-attribute also means that blog will not be as prominent on google. [22|14:02] cadence, what blog software [22|14:02] I'm using Wordpress. [22|14:02] I know there's a plugin. [22|14:02] theres prolly a pluugin already [22|14:02] doh [22|14:02] heh [22|14:03] a small sacrifice if it cuts down on comment spam [22|14:03] I've had such bad experiences with WP plugins I'm reluctant to even open up one anymore. [22|14:03] We had also proposed via social software alliance a link attribute that would show the value you assign to the link... at least + or -, or up to +5 or -5. [22|14:03] that would drive me matty to use [22|14:03] I think Kevin Marks actually did more with that. [22|14:03] batty [22|14:03] I've implemented something else that's been pretty effective for comment spam. [22|14:03] nofollow attribute does not upgrade. It's ONLY for comment spam prevention [22|14:03] nofollow isnt even abou comment spam prevention [22|14:03] bix: that was the intention according to google. [22|14:03] its about gradually degrading their pagerankings in search engines [22|14:04] it's about reducing the reward for comment spam [22|14:04] which over time may frustrate them [22|14:04] the reward, right [22|14:04] Well, yeah, but that's why comment spammers spam comments. [22|14:04] Isn't there a discussion on 'pedia about over-linking? [22|14:04] Right. [22|14:04] scuse me, what is a "social software allience"? [22|14:04] * Joins: jpalfrey_ (~chatzilla@ksgb152.harvard.edu) [22|14:04] * danbri tries to understand where rel="nofollow" would show up in the XHTML design, http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml2/mod-hyperAttributes.html#s_hyperAttributesmodule [22|14:04] technorati did rel="nofollow tag" and it tells google not to follow a link but technorati harvests the link for tag building [22|14:04] Good q, dinabri [22|14:04] I'm +1 on nofollow, fwiw. And psyched to see it get done so fast... [22|14:04] danbri [22|14:04] Igood point David is making. [22|14:04] I mean. [22|14:05] but we can take this "online" :-) we're talking "offline" in this conference. [22|14:05] six apart on no follow [22|14:05] http://www.sixapart.com/log/2005/01/support_for_nof.shtml [22|14:05] See what I commented above about the link value thing. [22|14:05] I've given up trying to understand David... [22|14:05] who are all these guest nicks? [22|14:05] Heh. [22|14:05] He's speaking html. [22|14:05] but, listen, google (and other engines) should be a mirror of /what/ is avaliable on online. without prejudice. [22|14:05] sorry this is Jon gArfunkel. At civilities.net [22|14:05] * Quits: fpzilla_ (~chatzilla@adsl-68-78-239-39.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net) (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) [22|14:05] * Quits: SethF (~sethf@HOME-ON-THE-DOME.MIT.EDU) (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) [22|14:05] * Quits: dyer (ethan@dyer.user) (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) [22|14:05] * Quits: jpalfrey (~chatzilla@ksgb152.harvard.edu) (calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net) [22|14:06] oh, okay. [22|14:06] * Joins: dyer (ethan@dyer.user) [22|14:06] I thought you were a bot :) [22|14:06] Why, orbited? [22|14:06] google lready has prejudices via pageranks anyway [22|14:06] but they are the prejudices of the web [22|14:06] thats overgenerlized but you get the idea [22|14:06] I don't want a billion hits, I want hits which are relevant to me. [22|14:07] * Joins: fpzilla_ (~chatzilla@adsl-68-78-239-39.dsl.mdsnwi.ameritech.net) [22|14:07] * Joins: SethF (~sethf@HOME-ON-THE-DOME.MIT.EDU) [22|14:07] * Joins: jpalfrey (~chatzilla@ksgb152.harvard.edu) [22|14:07] <_adam_gfx> cadence90: go talk to bunnywabbit about WP, she uses it all the time for her classes [22|14:07] has anyone proposed this to the HTML working group? (I know standarisation takes ages... but would be good for this technique to end up in the standard html docs...) [22|14:07] cool. [22|14:07] bix++ [22|14:07] * Joins: cameron_ (~cameron@h0080c81dbf52.ne.client2.attbi.com) [22|14:07] html is dead. [22|14:07] Not. [22|14:07] amgie: even impopular ideas are valid, right. otherwise google will be just plitically correct content. [22|14:07] Amgine: yup, it is. XHTML 1.0 [22|14:08] parsable html, at last. [22|14:08] orbited: Yes, but the question is one of context, not one of popularity. [22|14:08] In A Gadda Da Vida [22|14:08] i mean to say, one single, html standard that is actually in BNF [22|14:08] But google's primary purpose is not to index the web; it is to gain traffic for advertisers. [22|14:09] onto Zephyr.... [22|14:09] will the people on IRC type along? [22|14:09] hardblogger blog http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5445086/ [22|14:09] "Don't you know that I lo-ove yo-ou.. [22|14:09] google doesnt just index, it weights things based on links... spammers articificually increase their value by sidestepping the weblog's author and posting their own urls [22|14:09] westportnow is actually a really good site [22|14:09] <_adam_gfx> a heritic! burn it in the Googleplex! [22|14:09] can someone on IRC post a link to the controversy about Zephyr teachout [22|14:09] thereby also decreasing the weblog authors, well, credibilitt [22|14:09] I'm not sure if it's really a weblog, but it's a really good local paper substitute [22|14:09] the storm before Friday [22|14:10] It's In A Gadda Da Vida by Iron Butterfly. [22|14:10] the "controversy" took place at many places and there isnt just one link... [22|14:10] jonl, will you go tape these microphones right to these ppls' mouths [22|14:10] there was a ton of stuff [22|14:10] http://zonkette.blogspot.com/2005/01/frequently-asked-questions.html [22|14:10] that gives a summary [22|14:10] bix: yeah, sure. i'm all for fighting comment spam. i just don't like telling google what ideas i agree with or not. [22|14:10] yes, that all happened aFTER the WSJ story. [22|14:10] * Parts: KingTT (KingTT@sa-63-249-100-160.cruzio.com) [22|14:10] but if you look at the conference blog at http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/webcred and read the comments in some of the heavily-commented posts you'll get an idea. [22|14:10] * Parts: caoimhin (bob@owsla.ie.suberic.net) ("parting is such sweet sorrow...") [22|14:11] blogger in a restricted environment? what is a journalist in a restricted environment? [22|14:11] * Quits: zittrain (~jz@ksgb241.harvard.edu) [22|14:11] yes, that happened after Thursday night when the story hit the wires. [22|14:11] In charge. [22|14:11] google has no idea what ideas you agree with [22|14:11] * Quits: Project2501a (user@193.92.40.238) [22|14:11] the point is foe google to only consider what ideas YOU specifically linked to [22|14:12] who on the irc has been listening to the whole conf webcast? dave wants to know how we did and what are the pressing issues we've missed? [22|14:12] bix: the question is whether you can get information from google which is relevant to what you're looking for. [22|14:12] http://www.cadence90.com/wp/index.php [22|14:12] You haven't addressed *web* credibility. All you've been focused on that I've heard is blog credibility. [22|14:13] i've listened to most ofit [22|14:13] RMack, I've listened to both days and nothing comes to mind right now. Ask me again in a few days, hindsight being 20/20. [22|14:13] amgine... good point. would you like to elaborate? [22|14:13] I still stand with my point. The controversy hit only AFTER the WSJ story. The angry posts to Zonkette and Berkman/webcred started that Friday. [22|14:14] The underlying concepts of credibility are: authority and verifiability. [22|14:14] Bloggers, and most other online sources, do not address either of these, or only the former. [22|14:14] What is the most important podcast, Dave asks? My answer: the Trippi-Winer podcast.. [22|14:15] * Quits: adamhill (~adamhill@c-24-1-67-88.client.comcast.net) (No route to host) [22|14:15] close the podcast bay doors, hal [22|14:15] By transparently presenting sources, citations, etc. you develop a more reasonable expectation of credibility. [22|14:15] Lenny Bruce. [22|14:15] http://www.toeradio.org [22|14:15] OMG! [22|14:15] url? for davew last night's talk [22|14:15] However, as any journalist knows, you're only as good as your sources. [22|14:16] someone actually made a lenny bruce analogy re: weinberger last night [22|14:16] Am-jin [22|14:16] in my podcast film I'm using One: A Lego Odyssey [22|14:16] which is a stop motion animation spoof of 2001 [22|14:16] <_sj_> y'all are being talked about now. [22|14:16] We need elaboration on on the web vs blog [22|14:16] question [22|14:16] <_sj_> rmack is saying how she wants to address issues you have to raise... [very informally] [22|14:17] Thx, SJ. [22|14:17] oh good dave's response was to take a swipe [22|14:17] hes sucha charmer that dave [22|14:17] amgine -- we're talking about your point [22|14:17] yeah: credibitlity is about having a voice that moves people to shift their points of view [22|14:17] I know, I'm listening. [22|14:17] Type more, Amgine. [22|14:17] Amgine> By transparently presenting sources, citations, etc. you develop a more reasonable expectation of credibility. [22|14:17] amgine, could you phrase your question concisely one more time? [22|14:17] amgine, do you mean that there's a lot more to journalism-on-the-web than things we think about in terms of blogging? (eg. making backing datasets available, evidence for who-said-what, etc)? [22|14:17] I'll be sure we get back to it. [22|14:17] Transparency. [22|14:17] * Joins: jmarlowe (~jmarlowe@h00122555c6ae.ne.client2.attbi.com) [22|14:18] No. You don't have any reliable reference to point to: This is why I can say this. [22|14:18] * Joins: ryan__ (~ryan@c-67-180-39-195.client.comcast.net) [22|14:18] You really should use specifc links to specific resources. [22|14:18] Blogroll=neighborhood. [22|14:18] And this should be available with every article or entry. [22|14:19] lots of links can add value in some cases [22|14:19] I did a blog entry a few days ago that the new currency is sound ideas. Feedback makes ideas more sound. [22|14:19] re transparency... an example: http://www.theyrule.net/ is a cool graphical ui for some claims about corporate interconnectedness; it'd be cooler if the underlying XML source data could be tracked back to original sources [22|14:19] As an example, on Wikinews we generally insist there are several to many sources linked for each article. [22|14:20] These are at the bottom of each article. [22|14:20] ...nothing to do w/ blogs as such; everything to do w/ the web+journalism-ng [22|14:20] * Quits: guest447 (~42bc4663@67.19.41.132) (Remote closed the connection) [22|14:20] But we also add more links in the discussion pages (which can get quite heated) adding in additional background. [22|14:20] Paraphrasing the chicken guy (Parts is parts) : Links is links. [22|14:21] sbw01++ [22|14:21] jay rosen: "most bloggers are lazy" [22|14:21] Blogs can similarly implement such an attempt to have verifiability in their articles and blogs. [22|14:21] as in: don't do much with the tools [22|14:21] that make their blogs blogs [22|14:21] * cadence90 can barely get out of my pajamas [22|14:22] Good internet is reducing noise. YOu can's sip water through a firehose. Good blogging is distillation. [22|14:22] Frankly, the concept of blogrolls is pretty foreign to me. Also useless. [22|14:22] so, he's saying that most bloggers don't live up to the potential of their tools? [22|14:22] * Joins: zocky__ (~zocky@BSN-77-50-172.dsl.siol.net) [22|14:22] You can't sip... [22|14:23] more BS [22|14:23] Links allow an interested user to expand distillation. [22|14:23] http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Wikinews:Water_cooler [22|14:23] "media people don't read blogs" DAve is unfamiliar with Drezner & Farrell's report. [22|14:23] * Quits: jpalfrey (~chatzilla@ksgb152.harvard.edu) (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) [22|14:23] some media people don't read blogs [22|14:24] some do [22|14:24] Links also allow a user to check that you're telling the truth, faithfully reporting. [22|14:24] "media people don't read blogs" . What am I? Chopped liver? [22|14:24] olive loaf [22|14:24] ok, speaking of blogs, must head to go report on a meeting... later all [22|14:24] * Quits: bix (~bix@dsl093-038-153.pdx1.dsl.speakeasy.net) ("zoom") [22|14:24] Brauschwieger. [22|14:25] bye bix [22|14:25] * Joins: talkmore (~bw@pool-141-154-214-198.bos.east.verizon.net) [22|14:25] by b!X [22|14:25] dish [22|14:25] dave winer goes on [22|14:26] Would somebody pass me the mic? [22|14:26] and on and on and on. Ok, someone else. Jon L-- what's on your mind? [22|14:26] jonl - I'll speak for you - let me know what you want to say [22|14:26] will someone take it from dave [22|14:27] Just kidding, Ethan... [22|14:27] Fact gathering, analyzing? [22|14:27] stringers. [22|14:27] though I might have something to say in a minute. [22|14:27] sorry jonl - always the literalist [22|14:27] Dave Winer will not let go of the mic. Forget it. [22|14:27] hah [22|14:27] he's the moderator. [22|14:27] [22|14:27] Heh [22|14:27] I came up with the list of talking points for the day. (http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/webcred/index.php?p=52) [22|14:27] if he is a moderator then he is supposed to shut up and moderate [22|14:29] Reputation systems? karma? bah. [22|14:29] bringing up the research on the screen of what bloggers are read by the media. [22|14:29] dave winer is case study in what a web reputation means [22|14:29] networks of converstions: not necessarily network of bloggers [22|14:29] what is the url jon? [22|14:29] for those of us not in the room [22|14:29] http://www.danieldrezner.com/research/blogpaperfinal.pdf [22|14:30] Excuse me, this is a beauty contest. The entire idea gives me the heebyjeebies. [22|14:30] obviously they read the "ringers" -- professionals who dabble in blogging (aka the A-list) [22|14:30] You're talking about agents, networks of publishers, popularity... [22|14:30] Yeah. That's the ticket. YOu could brand and call it... a... a... Newspaper! [22|14:30] conversations travel through links. As to which blogger is linkins is really irrelevant. Network of conversations is a network of links. [22|14:30] lol sb201 [22|14:30] how do they find the stringers? I am trying to point out that both the editors and the stringers need to agree on a STANDARD for writing. [22|14:31] thanks [22|14:31] Standards are the same as any other publication: based on the focus. [22|14:31] but this is not, and has not been addressed. What makes a good blog? [22|14:32] I don't think a whole bunch of people are giving professional press credit for their intellect, skill, civic interest, & humility. [22|14:32] guest926: what makes a good newspaper/magazine/column? [22|14:32] Jon: different people have different criteria, I think. [22|14:32] Wonder if we could come up with criteria that most would agree on. [22|14:32] sbw01: humility? at times, individually... [22|14:32] Good newspaper? Does it help me improve my mental map of reality... may ability to plan my future. [22|14:32] some people love thomas friedman [22|14:32] I think we could. I sstarted doing this: http://civilities.net/OPW-Scorecard [22|14:33] and some people hate him [22|14:33] The point, sbw, is a good blog depends on what it is supposed to "do". [22|14:33] may ability to plan my future s/b may ability to plan my future [22|14:33] may ability to plan my future s/b MY ability to plan my future [22|14:33] sbw01++ [22|14:33] BS Google News liberal. [22|14:33] who is this guy? [22|14:33] ??? [22|14:33] yes [22|14:34] Powerline's Hinderaker's talking. [22|14:34] the guy who runs the Powerline blog. [22|14:34] google news liberal? [22|14:34] Not. [22|14:34] those liberal computers [22|14:34] oh man [22|14:34] hal 2000 - leftist [22|14:34] that's why his eye is red, you know [22|14:34] daisy daisy [22|14:35] Jon, that scorecard looks good... I'll look closer to see how you arrived at ratings. [22|14:35] google runs linux. of course it's liberal. If it was conservative it would run Windows [22|14:35] "any org that isn't dself-consciously conservative becomes liberal over time" The word 'liberal' has been purloined by reactionaries. [22|14:35] I hope I did it well. I'm not a full-time researcher studying blogs or anything. [22|14:35] did they hand out hewitt's book or not? [22|14:35] I do wish there was more and better research. [22|14:35] maybe that'll get passed to the discussion. [22|14:35] Maybe Liz Lawley's group at RIT will have some stuff. [22|14:35] if google were really conservative, it'd run on a proprietary mainframe OS [22|14:35] Hewitt's book was left out. people took it. [22|14:36] As I mentioned yesterday, I really want more data re. how people read blogs. [22|14:36] who "left it out" [22|14:36] ? [22|14:36] Because I think there are many missing assumptions. [22|14:36] This guy from Time is right. Giving up control is not gonna happen. [22|14:36] Sorry, mistaken assumptions. [22|14:36] time actually was pretty inovative early online [22|14:36] agreed. The Drezner and Farrell report explains who is read. [22|14:36] tom mandel of the well moderated their forum on AOL [22|14:36] time as pathfinder [22|14:36] and they had the late, great netly news [22|14:36] yeah [22|14:37] A basic, logical approach is always accused of being liberal. Odd that. [22|14:37] i've suggested that google news have a blog [22|14:37] Ethan is secretly a republican! [22|14:37] * Joins: press_junket (~0415b483@67.19.41.132) [22|14:38] srhodes: great idea. [22|14:38] A basic, logical approach is always accused of being conservative. Odd that. [22|14:38] check out http://allied.blogspot.com/2005/01/for-immediate-release-blome-pre.html [22|14:38] Let's talk about sex, furries, and blogs. [22|14:38] furries! [22|14:38] Usually schwings the conversation, neh? [22|14:38] allied++ [22|14:38] html is dead! holy cow, I didn't even notice the smell. [22|14:38] Eek - another conference! [22|14:38] allied ++++ [22|14:39] hi frankP [22|14:39] BloMe... heh. [22|14:39] Hi K [22|14:39] for a moderator, he sure talks alot. [22|14:39] it is a blogger conspiracy [22|14:39] that was courtesy of palfrey [22|14:39] also see http://www.flickr.com/photos/kombinat/3434617/ [22|14:40] still want to know who distributed hewitt's book... berkman or an activist? [22|14:40] * Quits: zocky_ (~zocky@BSN-77-50-41.dsl.siol.net) (Connection timed out) [22|14:40] jonl - now it's not a secret! [22|14:40] oh, dang, I'm projected! [22|14:40] fergot. [22|14:41] it would have come out one of these days anyway... [22|14:41] :-) [22|14:41] Brevity, yah right. [22|14:41] heh [22|14:41] Not to mention the media who are in the IRC at the moment. [22|14:41] and mediasts [22|14:41] and mediators [22|14:41] Damn. If I'm not listed, I must not be elite media. :-( [22|14:42] and MediaWiki... wait, wrong channel [22|14:42] some are reading blogs [22|14:42] kos isn't a journalist [22|14:42] [22|14:42] there are a lot of journalists who don't read blogs and many who do [22|14:42] stringers bespeaks a hierarchical model of info distribution [22|14:42] * Parts: waerth (waerth@ppp-61.91.94.4.revip.asianet.co.th) [22|14:43] Dave... lame. [22|14:43] THe flaw is segregating journalists as non-readers... when you can apply it to people generally. [22|14:43] a media mention of a blog will still increase traffic [22|14:43] and links from blogs will also increase traffic [22|14:43] guess what, there are still hierarchies in this world. [22|14:44] the media mention will bring in a different audience [22|14:44] peopel who are less likely to regularly read blogs [22|14:44] [22|14:44] This is Jon Garfunkel for anyone wondering. Elitist Ivy League graduate, software engineer, media snob. I read the New Yorker and the Atlantic Monthly. and TPM. [22|14:44] "professional blogger"? [22|14:44] We use the euphemism "He who must not be linked..." [22|14:44] sbw, i like that. [22|14:45] jon was it you who handed out the hewitt book? [22|14:45] re comments on sites not linking to non-journos, one goal I have for FOAF (hence contructs like foaf:workplaceHomepage) is for markup to help characterise the competence/background/etc of the people who write weblogs... [22|14:46] ok, I'll give something to the folklorists. I'd love to see what bloggers/media journalists read: http://www.bloglines.com/blog/JonGarfunkel [22|14:46] fpzilla-- I did not hand out the Hewitt book!!!! it was on the table. [22|14:46] not tellin' who picked them up. [22|14:46] I read Mad Magazine. [22|14:46] Jon L-- you're good ol' Texas cowboy. [22|14:46] 25 cents cheap [22|14:46] danbri: not granular enough. I know a heck of a lot about certain subjects, might be considered an authority in some of them, but other things I know little about. [22|14:46] I find it more credible than the ohter journals. [22|14:47] What I read: The Economist. Not Time, Newsweek, etc. [22|14:47] Heh, cows cringed across the state when you typed that. [22|14:47] mmm, the Economist [22|14:47] Sorry. we just have terrible stereotypes about cowboys up here in Cambridge. [22|14:47] hey yall [22|14:47] I read the Economist occasionally, too. [22|14:47] help me out [22|14:47] we need a new topic [22|14:47] We do here, in Texas, too. [22|14:47] We never actually SEE cowboys. [22|14:47] * FennecFoxen doesn't read the Economist, just http://eh.net [22|14:47] We already mentioned furries. You didn't pick up on it. [22|14:47] Except on television. [22|14:48] Amgine, I agree that indicating employer(s) isn't enough, which is why FOAF is super-flexible (at some expense to developers) since you can fill it with whatever evidence you care to... (starsigns, skills etc) [22|14:48] Topic: what is an A-list Blogger? [22|14:48] oy [22|14:48] Our/Are? [22|14:48] anyone going to the 2nd Iberian Cliometrics conference? [22|14:48] one point i'd like to make is that the discussion on media and bloggers often ignores that there is a tradition of activism journalism [22|14:48] I'm going to the Watch Paint Dry 2.0 conference. [22|14:48] significant blogs all conservative? [22|14:49] hey conservatives are shut out of the mainstream media! [22|14:49] that traditional media standards and ethics aren't the only option [22|14:49] did I hear right? [22|14:49] I just wrote an entry that activism isn't journalism. [22|14:49] This guy is quoting Hindraker, who said that. [22|14:49] * danbri blinks [22|14:49] lisa: I'm there this afternoon [22|14:49] conservicate conservative conservative [22|14:49] Okay. This is so far from statistical studies of journalism that I have no time for it. [22|14:49] that would make them conservative, Dave. [22|14:50] hah [22|14:50] Don't listen to the AM radio, then. [22|14:50] at the Paint Dry Symposia? [22|14:50] michael savage [22|14:50] Or me? [22|14:50] I am actually in the room. [22|14:50] right there [22|14:50] i'm virtually there [22|14:50] * danbri wonders what % of the attendees are Americans [22|14:50] You know, you don't have to drive across the country to hear those guys. [22|14:50] There are no U.S. conservatives these day. [22|14:50] it is good to listen to talk radio to get a sense of what people are hearing [22|14:50] gee, nobody answered that man's question. [22|14:50] did he hit you with mike? [22|14:50] I'm sure there's a Rush Limbaugh affiliate in Boston. [22|14:50] I'm sorry I laughed at him. That was not very nice. [22|14:51] this is Jon Garfunkel apologizing. [22|14:51] Gunna write an entry on why conservatives aren't conservative and liberals aren't liberal. [22|14:51] lisa ++ flow of types of discussion into new mediums [22|14:51] :) [22|14:51] danbri - just shy of 100% [22|14:51] Please do, sbw01. [22|14:51] lisa+++++++++++ [22|14:51] bloggers "covered" the conventions. define "covered" [22|14:51] * Joins: guest888 (~42bd70b8@67.19.41.132) [22|14:52] I was struck dumb when Sifry popped up on CNN. :) [22|14:52] limbaugh is on in boston http://www.wrko.com/showdj.asp?djid=13405 [22|14:52] lisa+++ [22|14:52] Random acts of journalism: PUT THEMON WIKINEWS! [22|14:52] Herald -- CNC [22|14:52] random acts of journo [22|14:52] Media never replaces media. First porn expands the technoplogy... then news follows... then gossip. [22|14:52] Lisa++: stories are like water. they flow where they are most welcomed [22|14:52] sorry, I'm grumbling. [22|14:52] "Random acts of senseless journalism." [22|14:52] Framinghanm is a town. Brookline is a town, too, and the CNC comapny sends a correspondent. [22|14:52] senseless acts of r.j. [22|14:53] lol [22|14:53] every city should make their meetings available on demand [22|14:53] ethanz, thanks. that puts a certain frame around use of words like 'convervative' and 'liberal' (as applied to blogs or journalists) [22|14:53] "never waste anything again"+++ [22|14:53] * Quits: guest888 (~42bd70b8@67.19.41.132) (Remote closed the connection) [22|14:53] sr agree [22|14:53] hey, a non-blogger covers the town meeting in Brookline: http://civilities.net/BrooklineTownMeeting2004 [22|14:53] but nobody's doing it. [22|14:53] In my home town they still have a local who goes around finding out who came to visit, birthday parties, etc. [22|14:53] most cable companies are making video on demand available [22|14:53] I like it. [22|14:53] srhodes: I'm sewing the Texas Secy of State re open meetings. [22|14:53] suing. [22|14:54] Not sewing. [22|14:54] jeez [22|14:54] Everyone who wants to in our town will be open to write on events they see. [22|14:54] bloggin vs. media : abundacne vs. scarcity. Blogging is a medium of abundance. [22|14:54] i have a trunk of poetry that proves that evrything shouldn't be shared [22|14:54] there's a great Cambridge MA newspaper substitute. [22|14:54] Kombinat -- we are in agreement here. [22|14:54] Because meetings to eval voting machines are held in secret. [22|14:54] i agree about all the lectures and talks that should be recorded [22|14:54] * Parts: orbited (orbited@c-3f02e255.138-1-64736c11.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) [22|14:54] I disagreed with Dave Winer, but he didn't call on me. [22|14:54] * Joins: j|turn (orbited@c-3f02e255.138-1-64736c11.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se) [22|14:54] i've always wanted to get all the bookstores in san francisco to record all the writers who speak there [22|14:54] now Dave is dumping on the nightly news. [22|14:55] never heard that in a journalism forum before. [22|14:55] ok -- his point-- what is cut out of the news. [22|14:55] "I was driving across the U.S. and I noticed that every town had a nightly newscast, and some of them were really lame." [22|14:55] definitely, Dave. [22|14:55] sr, yes, I've been going to these events and recording them in Boston. [22|14:55] with blogging the game is 'how fat of a firehose can we create on this issue, this concer, this commitment [22|14:55] ok, I will agree with Winer here -- it's interesting to know what is not being covered. [22|14:55] you had to be drunk to be there. [22|14:55] bloggers create Fat Firehoses [22|14:55] ? [22|14:55] it would be interesting to see rick kaplan criticize an network newscast [22|14:55] the better to drink from [22|14:56] It's interesting, too, to have SUSTAINED coverage... that goes on and digs in. [22|14:56] It's easy to criticize press that must edit to fit the pipeline. Why repeat the indictment. [22|14:56] As opposed to fast food news. [22|14:56] also, stories can have time to percolate. [22|14:56] wuick, dave is asking me to say something. what shojuld i talk about? [22|14:56] maybe a story isn't going to get great ratings the first night out. [22|14:56] Education. People need to learn to think. [22|14:56] Tempting, but it's a long drive from here. [22|14:56] The noise of blogs is about drowning in the richness of concerns voiced. Building a Jungle [22|14:56] * j|turn is in sweden. but, hey, what's on the menu? :) [22|14:57] They have to be alble to nose out the bullshit. [22|14:57] Longer drive from Sweden. [22|14:57] joho: blogs = abundance, media=scarcity [22|14:57] * Joins: rkrato (~rkrato@6532128hfc209.tampabay.rr.com) [22|14:57] Blogs might be able to do analysis, but they don't do it well imo. [22|14:57] Joho: that was for you. [22|14:57] David, you could talk about the aggregate value of blogs. [22|14:57] here's the link to the audio of david's talk [22|14:57] http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/ethan/2005/01/22#a716 [22|14:57] joho tell us we're full of shit [22|14:58] Go Joho... [22|14:58] That there are so many blogs, so many perspectives... [22|14:58] podcast of weinberger is also posted here: http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/webcred/index.php?p=55 [22|14:58] have something to say. [22|14:58] blogs = synthesise, enrich, pass on to the next blogger to add value , media = scarcity, analysis, narrow it down, distill [22|14:58] lobs tomato into the fray. [22|14:58] cool [22|14:58] go Joho [22|14:59] Song: We'll meet again, doin't know where, don't know when... [22|14:59] Kombinat: strong disagreement. [22|14:59] You can learn from something like a technorati news aggregation of many blogs on one subject... [22|14:59] Ok, here's my idea. The NEWS needs to list all the stories that are out there-- and exaplain simply why they are covering them or not.. [22|14:59] guest926: Hah! [22|15:00] amgine: I know, it was just to talk about some context. Not really an example [22|15:00] And this would meet what we need-- instead of just positng all the raw data. [22|15:00] so much for the ten second delay [22|15:00] art for journo's sake [22|15:00] News is an industry which is primarily in the business of capturing people's attention for short periods of time; hopefully in the interest of informing their audience. [22|15:00] I tell you... it will all come down to the need for a classical education. If only to know that you need to know more. [22|15:01] david's talk is a 17.3 MB mp3 file. it is good to list the size and type of a file when linking directly to audio [22|15:01] * Joins: guest447 (~42bc4663@67.19.41.132) [22|15:01] Weinberger is now rejecting the assumption that "blogging is a continuum of journalism." Which is why I PROPOSED coming up with some terminology explain the differences between bloggers. [22|15:01] Where is that file again, Steve? [22|15:01] This is Jon Garfunkel for anyone joining wondering who guest 926. [22|15:01] http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/ethan/2005/01/22#a716 [22|15:01] Jon, I think Rebecca Blood has done some of that. [22|15:01] Thanks, STeve. [22|15:02] Rebecca Blood is AWESOME. [22|15:02] guest926: Can you give me a reasonable collection of terminology describing water? [22|15:02] fyi: ojr article about google news and political balance http://www.ojr.org/ojr/technology/1095977436.php [22|15:02] it only takes a few minutes to download on the open wireless hotspot i'm near [22|15:02] No, but I can classify the people who work in journalim Amgine. [22|15:02] but it would take a while on a dial-up connection [22|15:02] I doubt you can classify them in a reasonable fashion *for*me*. [22|15:03] sandhill = emily dickinson [22|15:03] well, this happens in any subject which is sufficiently addressed by academia. [22|15:03] both kinds have influence [22|15:03] thehappytutor = Erasmus, Swift, [22|15:04] it really isn't that important how much more or less impact it has [22|15:04] K+++ [22|15:04] both kinds are important [22|15:04] I also disagree with Weinberger. [22|15:04] wow, I never thought someone would think 'blogs are a solution' [22|15:04] well, Weinberger does. [22|15:04] Kombinat: depends on the problem [22|15:04] and blogs are just self publishing [22|15:05] YES the software can be BETTER. Drupal/CivicSpace [22|15:05] why do blogrolls suck? [22|15:05] Good journalism and good blogging are a quest to understand and improve. [22|15:05] Better, with richer features. [22|15:05] Dave: What is the topic? What is a mediator? [22|15:05] mmm, CivicSpace... wasn't that formerly Deanspace? [22|15:05] Rebecca Blpood said that first. [22|15:05] We do some interesting integrations, too. [22|15:05] how could you have a system that blogrolls and communication of context didn't suck? [22|15:05] We=Polycot [22|15:05] Bad journalism and bad blogs are identical -- they suck. [22|15:05] How can a blogroll suck? [22|15:05] that is an interesting point when you consider that so many blogs look exactly the same [22|15:05] however, more important than the look is the RSS [22|15:06] guest926: been working with drupal for a year or so at Doc's IT garage and I'm not impressed with the software [22|15:06] Jon L -- we covered this early. [22|15:06] People were dissing blogrolls earlier, their inutility, etc. [22|15:06] What's a blogroll? a group of blogs you think are cool. [22|15:06] Yes, the software mostly sucks but it is a Format, just like a newspaper is a Format. Format decides what can be said. [22|15:06] How could blogging be better? Threaded comments. Weighted comments. [22|15:06] Well, as I said, I always think of it as an indication of the neighborhood where the blogger hangs out. [22|15:06] photo of jon garkfinkle http://mobcasting.blogspot.com/2005/01/jon-garfunkel.html [22|15:06] I rather like the wiki approach to blog. [22|15:07] this is all remixes of stuff that's out there, though. [22|15:07] wiki++ [22|15:07] i can do an ogg vorbis version of dave's talk if there's a way to post it [22|15:07] It's just blogs catching up with forum software [22|15:07] 'a set of constraints' yes yes yes [22|15:07] {{sofixit}} [22|15:08] press dink? [22|15:08] but the blogging software must still be about standards, so that it can be syndicated. [22|15:08] http://civicspacelabs.org [22|15:08] niek hockx says all we need is html... I tend to agree (with the addition of xml and css and stuff) [22|15:09] http://journalism.nyu.edu/pubzone/weblogs/pressthink/ [22|15:09] anyone have a picture of the room?? [22|15:09] * Joins: adamhill (~adamhill@c-24-1-67-88.client.comcast.net) [22|15:09] wiki/blog... icky combination :) [22|15:09] constraints++ [22|15:09] check out the OPW Scorecard [22|15:09] there are a buch of photos here [22|15:09] http://mobcasting.blogspot.com [22|15:09] no, lovely sticky combination. [22|15:10] agreed [22|15:10] It's reverse chron for the convenience of the reader, but a wiki would be much more useful to the writer. [22|15:10] FennecFoxen: A blog is just adding stuff to a page. A wiki is a lot of people doing that. [22|15:10] a year ago?? [22|15:10] interviews [22|15:10] some more photos [22|15:10] http://www.flickr.com/photos/tags/webcred/ [22|15:10] Amgine: You should see some of the more heated discussions on certain Wikipedia pages and talk pages. People tend to interleave comments and replies until it's rather unreadable :) [22|15:11] thttp://therevealer.org/ [22|15:11] pointed out from Jay. [22|15:11] refactoring++ =) [22|15:11] yikes [22|15:11] I built a set of templates to deal with that, FennecFoxen. [22|15:11] one example would be an article that got a lot of attention a month ago [22|15:11] I'm going to have a bad hair day on flickr [22|15:11] dave's talking to all of us I think... [22|15:11] But I've decided not to publish them. [22|15:11] that someone might go to the front page [22|15:11] looking for [22|15:12] but, why use a magazine-metaphor? isn't one of the USP's with bloggs that they are something new - RSS being one of the most prominent changes. i read dozens of blogs every day, and i never go to the blog itself. [22|15:12] or an older article which is related to something currently in the news [22|15:12] DRUPAL .... [22|15:12] too complicated. [22|15:13] [22|15:13] some of the photoblogs allow you to pick a few favorite photos [22|15:13] i'm holding up the finger. [22|15:13] that stay on the main page [22|15:13] ok, I'll hold up all five. [22|15:14] Next generation blogs: There needs to be a vector that shows learning over time. Growth. [22|15:14] you could do it in typepad with a typelist [22|15:14] on the sidebar [22|15:14] I've found that RSS is way more complicated to set up and use than it should be. The multiple standards ATOM? RSS 2.0. I still haven't got it all figured out, even though I'm set up to send out an RSS feed. ( I think!) [22|15:14] non-chronological blogging++ [22|15:15] nonlinearblogging++++++++ [22|15:15] yeah, read Civilities.net. I reject non-chron blogging. it's called constructive media. [22|15:15] * Quits: ethanz (~ethan@ksgb209.harvard.edu) (Connection timed out) [22|15:15] Let's be realistic; future blogs are going to give gee-whiz graphical and textual interfaces to people who can't write a 3-point essay. [22|15:15] Amgine: hehe [22|15:15] The issue should be content, not interface. [22|15:15] It is very hard to consume podcasts and video quickly. It would be nice to have indexed in video and podcasting. Good point on his part. [22|15:16] " to people who can't write a 3-point essay." Bingo! [22|15:16] well, unless you're the one programming the blog software :) [22|15:16] at paidcontent, we publish on the page, syndicate through rss and also produce a weekday newsletter. With the latter, we reorder the posts based on importance or topic ... an editing function that doesn't exist in blogging/rss [22|15:16] dave is talking. [22|15:16] Staci-- awesome. I love it. [22|15:16] What is padcontent? [22|15:16] I'll bring it up if Dave lets me. [22|15:16] surely you could have a blog where you reorder posts based on importance/topic... [22|15:16] Tags. [22|15:16] and make an RSS feed of it... [22|15:17] * FennecFoxen hmms. [22|15:17] guest926: it really changes the experience for me and the reader. tell Dave I told you to [22|15:17] can't skim podcasting Dave says. [22|15:17] http://www.paidcontent.org [22|15:17] * danbri tuned out... but hears something about css [22|15:17] dave winer said he hates CSS? [22|15:17] * danbri takes to his blog [22|15:17] thanks, steve. we cover the digital content, broadband, IP, etc. [22|15:17] btw: Kombinat? Really cool graphic. [22|15:17] Tags are simply another way of creating a view of the data. [22|15:18] danbri: ha! [22|15:18] headline: Dave Winer hates the CSS technology! [22|15:18] reverse-chronology is just one view of the data you have. [22|15:18] dave says podcasting is great because readers can't skim it. duh. [22|15:18] you can skim podcasting if it's done in QuickTime. You can embed bookmarks and text inside the audio. [22|15:18] in fact +1 on audio content being humanising [22|15:18] one of them [22|15:18] i was kidding [22|15:18] * danbri grins hi dave [22|15:18] I remember the move from HTML in notepad to easy toold to conplext graphic tools that only experts would use. IT kicked people who wanted to do easy stuff out of the world again. [22|15:18] Over time, you could show pages that show the strong and weak relationships between tags within your content. [22|15:18] Can you repeat it? [22|15:18] my attention span when listening to podcasts are like 15 seconds. i like to skim stuff. [22|15:19] winer says it's nice to be user hostile! :) [22|15:19] podcasts are so 2004 [22|15:19] * Joins: MykReeve (~MykReeve@spc1-watf2-3-0-cust165.asfd.broadband.ntl.com) [22|15:19] you knew that was coming [22|15:19] lol at dave [22|15:19] AGREED. Dave Sifry does not have enough time to listen to ALL the podcast. [22|15:19] I don't know what you mean when you say that you reject non-chronological blogging. [22|15:19] At one level, all blogging will be chronological. [22|15:19] podcast keyword aggregation [22|15:19] I'd explain when Dave calls on me. [22|15:19] It's just not the only view of the data. [22|15:20] Cadence -- yes, but there's different way of organizing the content. see http://civilities.net/ [22|15:20] fpzilla: podcast keyword aggregation. Hmmm. Nice.++ [22|15:20] amgine: this is a painting from a polish satire painter Miklasiewicz [22|15:20] whatever [22|15:20] i actually find your organization confusing [22|15:20] * Parts: talkmore (~bw@pool-141-154-214-198.bos.east.verizon.net) [22|15:20] The Kombinat organization is not confusing [22|15:20] one nice thing about the traditional blog is you can see what is new since you last visited easily [22|15:21] people found my webcomic's organization confusing when I made it all in panels and did pageup/pagedown as well as panel up/panel down... [22|15:21] people are easily confused =b [22|15:21] Yes, that is a convienience for the reader. [22|15:21] but blogs should be useful for the writer as well. [22|15:21] Hodes -- you can use RSS reader to read Civilities. [22|15:21] the view for the reader and writer don't have to be the same. [22|15:21] Engineers have been making products just for them for YEARS and sometimes the users really don't care. But often enough engineers are users that they sell for awhile. [22|15:21] dave winer says do me a favor, don't read my blog! :) [22|15:21] anybody knows for how long the conference is going to go on? [22|15:21] i have so many things in my newsreader [22|15:22] there are some sites i visit the old fashioned way [22|15:22] I'm already doing him a favor! [22|15:22] This particular session is forever-1 second. [22|15:22] my page is set up for someone who comes in once in awhile,, and wants to skim veyr quickly the things I've been writing about recently. [22|15:22] srhodes: me too, horse and buggy [22|15:22] sigh... [22|15:22] I don't read dave winer's blog. There! he should be happy now [22|15:22] i am happy! [22|15:22] FennecFoxen: Yes, you can reorder the blog and create an rss for that but the part of the point of blogging -- for me, anyway -- is the way each item exists on its own. If I have to stop to reorder everything I'm altering that experience ... [22|15:22] * jonl is now known as jonl_away [22|15:22] open to debate re. drupal [22|15:22] Ohhhh no skipping forward! That might make the future advertizers mad! Think Tivo's capitualation ot the advertisers and the 30 second skip button. [22|15:23] DaveScripting: good for you. glad to hear it. [22|15:23] * Quits: cadence90 (~lisa@ksgb092.harvard.edu) [22|15:23] NOT! there are no conservatives in the U.S. [22|15:23] * Parts: MykReeve (~MykReeve@spc1-watf2-3-0-cust165.asfd.broadband.ntl.com) [22|15:23] darn [22|15:23] I could have *sworn* I was in the US. [22|15:23] guess not. :) [22|15:24] re conservatives online, I've written about this before ... until this last election conservatives did a much better job of using the internet hence seemed more prominent [22|15:24] Do you support the status quo until alternatives are proven? [22|15:24] * Quits: guest826 (~ce0f8bda@67.19.41.132) ("CGI:IRC 0.5.5 (2005/01/08)") [22|15:24] * Joins: Zenduck (~jbm@ool-182d23a6.dyn.optonline.net) [22|15:25] this is the corp lawyer from mpls? [22|15:25] Amgine: depends on which status quo you're talking about :) [22|15:26] * Quits: dyer (ethan@dyer.user) (Client Quit) [22|15:26] chart? What chart? [22|15:26] That's the difference between a conservative, and an activist - which is the appropriate comparison. Not conservative and liberal. [22|15:26] What pink one? [22|15:26] http://civilities.net/OPW-Scorecard [22|15:26] pink ones are group blog. [22|15:27] librarians+++++++ [22|15:27] there are information designers [22|15:27] guest: Thnx [22|15:28] guest is Jon Garfunkel of Brookline, Mass. [22|15:29] Thank goodness I know nothing about David Winer. [22|15:29] http://poynter.org/forum/?id=letters [22|15:29] touche [22|15:29] are there only americans in the room? [22|15:29] adjourned. [22|15:29] the conference it is over [22|15:29] where's the song? [22|15:30] * Joins: guest849 (~42bd70b8@67.19.41.132) [22|15:30] * Quits: ryan__ (~ryan@c-67-180-39-195.client.comcast.net) [22|15:30] thank you everyone on the IRC!!!!! [22|15:30] [22|15:30] yay!!! and there was much rejoicing!!!!! [22|15:30] * Kombinat is in Germany [22|15:30] I have a song. It's from a funny thing happened on the way to the forum [22|15:30] happy days [22|15:30] are here again [22|15:30] the sky above [22|15:30] is clear again [22|15:30] let us [22|15:30] sing [22|15:30] a song [22|15:30] everybody ought to have a blog [22|15:30] of cheer again [22|15:30] NO SINGING! [22|15:30] I know Gaspart was listteing yesterday from Italy [22|15:30] always look on the bright side of life.... [22|15:30] happy days are here again [22|15:30] Happy days are here again! [22|15:30] hehe [22|15:30] * Quits: guest849 (~42bd70b8@67.19.41.132) (Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)) [22|15:30] everybody ought to have a working blog. [22|15:31] la la la la la la la la la la la [22|15:31] some of the links which have been mentioned are at [22|15:31] http://del.icio.us/tag/webcred_links [22|15:31] iggy [22|15:31] lalalalalalalalalalalalal [22|15:31] happy days [22|15:31] are here [22|15:31] again! [22|15:31] I feel much better now. Thanks, Dave. [22|15:31] thanks for seeting this up everybody. [22|15:32] and some guys from Estonia too [22|15:32] Thanks, all! [22|15:32] <_sj_> thanks :-) nice turnout... [22|15:32] <_sj_> dave is singing in my ear right now [22|15:32] <_sj_> and recording it for a odcast... [22|15:33] [22|15:35] good night. [22|15:35] podcast coming shortly [22|15:35] Anyone interested in wiki and news, check out #wikinews [22|15:35] with the conference song [22|15:35] about three minutes from now [22|15:37] thanks for all the remote participation gadgetry folks, much appreciated. [22|15:43] http://static2.podcatch.com/blogs/gems/snedit/cnJan22.mp3 [22|15:47] Davescripting: Dont quit your day job or tryout for Amercian Idol. :-X [22|15:50] Oops, if anyone's still around from two hours ago thanks for the chatting references--I got whisked away to a class... and even now I'm only here for 1 sentence... [22|15:51] * Parts: spocko (~spocko@dsl092-250-101.sfo4.dsl.speakeasy.net) [22|15:57] * Parts: Nico-dk (~chatzilla@80.167.117.133) [22|16:02] <_sj_> http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/sj/2005/01/22#a749 [22|16:02] <_sj_> last official afternoon session; [22|16:02] <_sj_> the open session needs a bit of editing before it is even accurate [22|16:02] <_sj_> so I'll put it up later tonight. [22|16:02] <_sj_> the above is also not cleaned... so be careful about quoting directly from it ;) [22|16:06] <_sj_> ciao all [22|16:40] <_sj_> http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/sj/#a749 [22|16:40] <_sj_> final transcripts. [22|16:43] what's up with the conference [22|16:43] ? [22|16:43] <_sjsup_> over [22|16:47] but the new york times is still standing [22|16:47] damn [[ end of day 2 ]]